Marlee Matlin is a child of Satan? I knew it!
If it is God’s plan, a divine will for me to be an atheist, it seems a cruel plan, for if I die in my present state I cannot possibly get into heaven. Unless God has somehow rendered me invincible until I change my mind…a theory I wouldn’t really want to test, if I’m honest.
Fair enough, but what do you say to the Muslims (in the first case) and Mormons (in the latter case) who say with equal conviction and sincerity that God has told them in their hearts that the Koran is his word, who ‘feel’ through divine presence that what Muhammad taught was the complete, final word of God? Or Joseph Smith, who thought angels were sending him messages from God? They can use the same argument against you - that God has revealed things personally, even when those things are contradictory to your own beliefs? I’m not calling you a liar, but people of other faiths also claim this privilege with equal sincerity.
I don’t doubt that there are things we will never, things we probably can never know. We are a mammalian species with a primate brain, not exactly apt for uncovering the secrets of the universe. For all we know the complex system of quantum mechanics is just the ‘tip of the iceberg’. But relegating the unknown to the ‘spiritual’ seems to me like giving up, settling on a ‘magic did it’ explanation.
Satan is a lesser god? I thought he was a rebellious angel (unless the two are one, although I can’t claim to know a great deal of Christians who would call angels ‘lesser gods’ - seems a bit like polytheism to me. I could be wrong, of course)? In the story of Saul, rebellion against God seems to be a sin sure to incur God’s wrath, but in Satan’s case God just seems to shrug it off and lets him get away with it. In any case, it just seems so unnecessary. If he knows good will win out in the end anyway, why not give it a divine helping hand and get rid of Satan? It seems that the father is not pleased or accepting about this state of unknowingly following Satan, for if we die in this state it’s a one-way ticket to Hell. In the child analogy, this would be like a child being groomed by some villain, and then the father beating the child for all eternity for this crime (infinite punishment for a finite crime - another immoral doctrine). He would also leave the villain to strike again. What justice is this?
This kind of argues to my point. God is Jesus, Jesus God. So God is sacrificing himself to himself. It’s all an ‘internal’ divine ploy. He decided, in his wisdom, that in order to close a loophole in his own rules, to save his own creation from his own wrath. Why couldn’t he have just appeared and announced that all our sins were forgiven, no guilt trip necessary, no torture or binding blood sacrifice required. Would this not have been an even more merciful gesture, the more moral gesture?
God would interfere in my free will? I’m fairly sure I could make a compelling case to the the crowd that cutting down an eccentric preacher is a better decision than freeing a bandit. Would God silence me, paralyse me? Then he is not moral, he is forcing me to watch an innocent man die without letting me do anything about it.
Cutting a man from a crucifix requires divine power?
:rolleyes: Put yourself in a completely light-proof room with no light source inside. Now imagine us saying to you that the complete darkness is the combination of all projected visible light frequencies. Now imagine how silly that sounds. Now you know how silly what you have just said is. (Or rather, one would hope.)
As with the OP, we are, for some strange reason, not very interested in any opinions of yours, just the facts.
Especially not extremely goofy opinions; ones that cannot be considered even remotely as extrapolations of fact.
Have a nice weekend. 
So it seems you are saying that atheists, who by definition do not believe in ANY sort of god, good or bad, are actually being controlled by “real gods”, who turn them away from the one true God.
The atheists do not believe in these gods, but these (false) gods actually blind the atheists to the True God, even in the absence of belief in these “real gods”
It really does not make much sense to me, as an atheist, who does not believe in ANY sort of God.
Your only proof of this is that you have personally been told by the main, most important God, out of several different gods that are running around.
Seriously, how can one differentiate your “proof” from a simple opinion or in an extreme case, an internal delusion or neuropathy?
I belong to no church. I read in the bible how the many would come in the name of Christ and decieve many. I then simply read and studied the bible alone and believed what was written
The historical understanding of Satan seems to be that at first he was the Accuser, the prosecuting attorney in God’s Court, charged with showing Him the unrighteousness and sin of each man. From there he moved into a Ken Starr role of sorts, a special prosecutor with the authority to entrap man in sin if at all possible. Then, during the exile, he was conflated with Ahriman, the evil god of Zoroastrian beleif, and moved into the role of archrebel against God and leader of others into sin. (I am of course speaking here of the evolving conception of Satan, not on any objective reality which may exist regarding the figure.)
Note that it is very difficult for a believer convinced of the existence, transcendence, and immanence of God, to conceive of an atheist or agnostic mindset which simply considers the existence and involvement of any god as either non-existent or irrelevant.
Yeah – and how do you know you’re not one of their number. The Bible did not appear magically in the hands of agnels; it was written by human beings to relate their understanding of how God had worked in their lives and in the society and history they were a part of.
Well, getting back to the sabbath. So how did this come about? How and why did Christians turn away from the written Word and keep the doctrines of man? How did they end up changing Gods 4th commandment. We Christians were actually givin many warnings about these bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.
1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:
Watch out for these roaring lions!
MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.
Beware of these false prophets. They are RAVENING WOLVES. Also implied here is that “the many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life.
ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.
The GRIEVOUS WOLVES were there from the beginning
EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.
Well, I found all these warnings from the new testament in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Since “that day” has not yet arrived no one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel and does not apply to christians. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.
EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken
A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS! They meant to do it and they sure did pull it off despite the warnings
Hes a tricky little devil
Well Polycarp, i know im not of their number because there aint to many of me. The “many” have chosen to ignore Gods day of rest and hold on to another
LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
little flock
MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.
few there be that find it
MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.
The many get surprised
LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.
ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because THEY HAVE TRANSGRESSED THE LAWS, CHANGED THE ORDINANCE, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.
Hi…. Well, here we are Polycarp. The BOTTOM LINE. The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that a few will be saved to the kingdom. Why but a few? Because the many have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant.
LEV.24 [8] EVERY SABBATH he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.
Is this the everlasting covenant that they broke?
MATTHEW 22 [12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN.
I don’t accept that the Bible is more than man-made, and even if it was - the problem with the Ten Commandments is that they aren’t particularly moral.
A run down;
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol.
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God.
These first three are really all about a tribal god being a jealous god. Almost as if we have some form of power over him, if we can hurt his feelings. There’s nothing particularly moral about any of it. Why would he even care? If he so wished it he could reveal himself to all and ensure these commandments were kept. The ‘idol’ commandment has also been used to justify great cultural desecrations and violence in the past.
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Why? Because, for some reason he rested on the seventh day? Being God, he could have just made the whole world in 1 day and not rested, so this seems very arbitrary to me. I also don’t see the benefit. Indeed it could be immoral, if you need to work to feed your family and such. “Because I said so” isn’t really a very compelling reason, especially from a deity who has created billions of stars, black holes, quasars, designed the atom and what have you. You think he would be able to do better.
Honor your father and mother.
Tell that to Joseph Fritzl’s daughter. Where’s ‘honour your sons and daughters’?
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Fair enough, (although where’s “You shall not rape” or “You shall not keep slaves”?) these at least have moral purpose. But then are you telling me that before Moses came down from Mount Sinai the Jews thought that this stuff was fine? We wouldn’t have survived as a species if we thought murder and theft was totally acceptable.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
This is thoughtcrime. And sexist, too - for women are apparently free to covet other men’s husbands? He gave us sexual impulses, lust and expects us to act against them. We cannot help but covet things we find attractive, it’s how our species propagates.
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.
More thoughtcrime. Why shouldn’t I? If I don’t steal it, who cares? It doesn’t harm him in any way. Indeed it may be a spur for me to work harder to that I can afford it too.
Actually I do know exactly how silly what i say sounds, but I also know it is truth. Again look to the allegory of the cave.
Not that you want to test it, but you can’t die unless God allows it. You have free will, so God will allow it if you push the issue, but besides that, yes IMHO you are immortal till you come to God, after which time He may have you rest or you may see the Lord Jesus coming for you (as I believe many have before you)
The instructions are very simple, seek God. If they are doing that I must back awy and allow God to be God, and allow whatever path He selects.
I do understand this, in some ways it is giving up, saying that we don’t know what the f*&% we are doing, and turning to God to provide the answer. We are really just children, and as such there is nothing wrong with saying Father please teach me, instead of trying to figure out how it works when we are just old enough to speak.
Rebel angels/devils/demons are gods, along with men (Jesus even stated men are gods)
IMHO Angels go through a similar refining process as man does, but on a longer time table. Satan, like Saul will lose his kingdom.
In any case, it just seems so unnecessary. If he knows good will win out in the end
In my reading of scriptures I believe only 3 may suffer eternally, that being Satan, the Beast and the false prophet. This is much more then I want to type out and will go through many books of the Bible, but in short Jesus overcame the grave, and being dead is no longer a barrier to salvation.
This would have subverted the godhood of Satan, and thereby the godhood of Jesus. In order to preserve the inheritance of Jesus as co-heirs of the saints the Father had to respect the godhood of Satan.
If you were without sin then you would have a chance, but then again you would be the one crucified. Once you sin, you are a slave to sin, so you must obey your master, which would be Satan. Satan would simply state before the Father that he owns your ass because you (lusted after your babysitter when you were 2), and the Father would allow Satan to make sure you were not around at that time.
God gives arch angels a lot of authority. If one says I want permission to crucify your Son Jesus and it is granted, nothing is going to stop it.
Not that it matters, but the word is “archangel.” An “arch angel” would be a wry, sarcastic fellow with wings and a halo.
Blimey, I’m immortal until I come to God? That’s not much incentive for me to come to God, though! I’m fairly sure I’m as mortal as any of my fellow primates.
Many (including myself, some years ago) have tried earnestly and honestly to seek God, to allow him to reveal himself, or give answers, or comfort. Many received contradictory answers (in my case nothing, I received no revelation, no answers, no comfort). Unless I was doing something wrong (and it seems that if it were an easy process nobody like me would exist - again, why God is purposefully concealing himself seems to have no good answer than “mysterious ways”) I don’t know what else I can do. As for those who have received contradictory answers - is God capricious, or allowing Satan to answer, or are these people deluding themselves?
Well, absolutely. In many ways it amazes me how far we’ve come, we’re still a relative infant species. In a scant few thousand years we’ve gone from thinking that Helios pulls the sun-disc across the sky to working planetary models and laws of physics. This is why I’m opposed to giving up - progress was always made over our previous (in many cases ‘spiritual/mystical’) understanding on how the world works. The trouble is, this father - the creator of everything we could possibly hope to understand - has not taught us, we had to figure out things for ourselves, by painful trial and error. God didn’t elucidate us regarding things as important as germ theory, men like Pasteur and Lister did. Although interesting the Hindu Vedas contains surprisingly accurate theories about disease…so are we asking the wrong God for guidance?
Fair enough, although I’d be very surprised if this is an issue of consensus amongst Christians. Nicean Creed and all that; One God, the Father Almighty.
Saul lost his kingdom pretty quickly after his rebellion (which amounted to not wanting to slaughter innocent people and wanting to save animals for his roving band). God has had thousands of years to get rid of Satan and the Kingdom of Hell. What’s he waiting for?
I’m glad that you don’t hold to an immoral doctrine of a loving father who would allow his creations to be tortured forever. Although I presume you still believe in a heaven and hell - some people get rewarded after death for their beliefs, some likewise punished. The problem is that God, as the maker of us all, already knows where you’re going to go. Why did he bother to create this elaborate soul-filtering machine, or make ‘bad’ souls?
By way of analogy; I clone a sheep (for it’s possible, and Christians call themselves a flock, so why not). I program its behavioural patterns, instincts, design everything about it, give it free will so it can do as it wants. I watch this sheep day and night. When it does something I don’t like I then beat the sheep to death. Onlookers would think I was a complete psychopath - why did I create the sheep in the first place, if I knew it was going to do something I wouldn’t like? Surely that is my fault, the creator, not the creation. I knew it was going to happen, I created it, but the punishment is dished out to the creation because God is more powerful than us. The buck has to stop somewhere.
Jesus can’t exist without Satan? They seem two very separate entities to me…although it is the ret-con with the snake that is the reason for Jesus’s temporary sacrifice, so perhaps you have a point. Although this doesn’t speak to the goodness of God, that he creates a system whereby this evil trickster is so intermingled with everything else that he can’t just get rid of him without everything else falling to pieces.
Wouldn’t Satan be against the Resurrection? He was the (retconned) one who tricked Eve into original sin in the first place, surely it’s in his best interests to keep that system going. More souls in sin = more souls for Hell, right?
On this question. I don’t think anyone can say that they have never done anything bad in their life. However, the basis of justice is personal responsibility. I don’t think that it is right for someone else to take on the burden of my wrongdoing, because it doesn’t absolve me of any responsibility. It was still me who lusted, I can’t change that. I especially can’t change it by heaping my sins on a man who suffered a brutal execution. This is scapegoating.
The etymology of the word ‘scapegoat’ comes from this: "“goat sent into the wilderness on the Day of Atonement, symbolic bearer of the sins of the people”
I don’t think that these people were absolved of their responsibility, or the consequences of their actions, because they sent a goat off to die in the desert. I don’t think they were moral in doing so. But that’s exactly what the Christian proposition is, to varying degrees (depending on the definition of ‘sin’).
Why would he grant an obviously evil act from an evil archangel? Why would he invest authority in an angel which he knew would rebel against him and cause his apparently loved creation great suffering?
Cite?
It may take a long time. In some ways we are stubborn, perhaps we are determined to find God as a particular denomination Christian, but God wants us to come to Him through Hinduism. If we cling to what we assume is true we will delay Him leading us as He wants.
And yes He will allow our lesser god to speak to us, but He limits what he can say.
We have learned since infancy the ways of the teaching of man, we have to allow our Father the same. He does not teach the same way, nor talk the same way, but He does teach and talk to us. We have to learn, as we did with our human parents, from the beginning.
So many times I joked about getting God a day planner, He answered by sending me one. God’s timing is not ours, that’s about all I want to say about this.
This is very complex and incomplete, but I don’t believe God would create a being that was eternally dammed, also everything comes from God, including envy, anger, lust, etc. As such Satan has not created those things (like lust), but was with God. I believe it is possible and likely that God Himself is going through a refining process, trying to rid Himself of those negative qualities (if He refines us it is only just that He also is refined). I can not see how a Loving God can create a being that will be eternally dammed, so the only being that will suffer eternal damnation could only be a aspect of God Himself.
This brings us to the ‘sons of God’ and the nephlium (Gen 6, Job 1), and that a son is part of the essence of the father. The sons of God may be the qualities of God that God wanted to refine out of Himself, which He ‘spawned’ off as sons. Those sons have been warring in the heavens for power and control. Their hybrid offspring (nephlium) have human qualities and are reachable by the Father on their human side. So even though the direct ‘son of God’ is unreachable by God the nephlium child is. As that child decides to accept God as his Father, that child becomes refined into Jesus, ‘son of God’ and ‘son of man’. The remaining rebellious ‘son of God’ loses power and eventually gets disguarded by God as a quality He does not want to possess. This aspect of God is what suffers eternally.
The scriptures speak of sons of God, IMHO Satan is one of them, Jesus is one of them. The Father had to allow them equal godhood in order to preserve righteousness.
Satan didn’t know that the crucifixion would lead to his downfall, there is a scripture to this in the NT which I can’t locate at this time.
The issue is the sacred rite of marriage, the 2 becoming one. Scapegoating is the OT way of dealing with sin along with letting your children bear the sins of the father. The new way is the marriage of Jesus and His church where the sins are covered as the believer is now one with Jesus who paid the price.
I went into it above.
It’s spelled N E P H I L I M. IIRC, the singular is nephil.
Lets not get into legalism the word is הַנְּפִלִ֞ים
Actually, what you’ve got there is ha nephilim. Which would mean the nephilim. Nephilim lacks the hey character on the far right.
ETA I’m a Jew. When discussing scripture, I believe we should and indeed must get into legalism.
ETA again The spelling you have given cannot possibly be the one given in the Torah. It includes vowels and the Torah does not. It could be 'neflium" but thousands of years of tradition (and indeed the spelling with vowels you have provided) says it is “nephilim”
This goes back to what I was saying earlier, that if I died right now according to Christian theology I would be condemned. Although you’ve said that since Jesus/God has revealed nothing to me yet that I shall be immortal until they do. So I suppose we’re at an impasse here.
My argument is that he does not teach…at all. And much of what is ascribed to him is not moral.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end - time would seem to be meaningless to him. So I suppose his timing would not be ours.
I’ve not heard this idea from Christians before, that God was somehow flawed and needed to purge himself. But then is Satan is an aspect of God, then surely God is not good. Only the ‘good aspect’ of him is. And you could argue that for anyone. I’d also got back to the idea that Jesus is the same today, tomorrow and forever - either God is eternal or he isn’t. A God that changes/learns surely speaks against the idea that he is all-knowing - if he were all knowing to begin with why would he change?
“For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” - 1 John 3:20
Again, I think you have a somewhat different view of God than others…although to me they’re all equally valid, so. If God needed to ‘spawn’ these qualities, it seems he is somehow constricted - given the amount of strife that these ‘spawns’ cause on heaven and earth. If he were all powerful, couldn’t he purge himself of these qualities by willing it so? It should not be impossible;
“Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”” - Matthew 19:26
He had to? Surely he doesn’t have to do anything. What is this cosmic ruleset that God has to abide by, and who made it? If it was God himself, one who can creates can modify.
Fair enough, I don’t have much of a problem with the Christian Satan being none too bright. Although if he’s a god you’d expect him to know something was up, and the way some Christians talk about him he sounds far more crafty than God.
Yes! That’s exactly my point. The sins being covered because Jesus paid the price for them. Jesus is the scapegoat here, we are forced to pile our sins onto him. But we still committed those sins, they still have consequences, they are still our personal responsibility for them. These things should not be paid by anyone else, especially by a man being nailed to a cross. Here you get into words over deeds, it abolishes justice;
Isaiah 55:7 “Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.”
Ignore the past, pretend it didn’t happen - just pile your sins onto Jesus and everything’s fine. This isn’t moral! If we lived by this doctrine we could do anything we wanted, but because Jesus died for our sins we could just turn to him and everything’s a-ok. Except this demolishes our personal responsibility. If I sin, I can’t say that somebody else is responsible for that sin and that my stake in it is of no consequence. Because it would be a lie.
I must not have understood. Speaking frankly, I still don’t.