Gods sabbath day SAVED!

Great Debates
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EZEK.8 [13] He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.[14] Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD’s house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat WOMEN WEEPING FOR TAMMUZ.[15] Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and THOU SHALT SEE GREATER ABOMINATIONS than these.[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and THEIR FACES TOWARD THE EAST; AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST.

The above scripture is speaking of easter mornin sunrise service. Worshiped towards east (sun rise). Tammuz is a key word here. Look Tammuz up in any encyclopedia. Where ya find Tammuz, you will find Ishtar. Known as Isis to the Egyptions, Ostara, Eostre, Venus, Aphrodite, Astarte, and other names in other cultures, she was Diana to the Romans, but most commonly known as Ishtar, pronouned EASTER.

JER.10 [3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.[5] They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

No doubt a christmas tree.

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Most so called Christians cant count to 3

MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and THERE SHALL NO SIGN BE GIVEN to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

The above scripture says as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whales belly, and so shall Jesus be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Does good Friday afternoon till (easter) Sunday morning equal 3 days and 3 nights? No it does not. Yet that is what they believe

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Hey, why can’t you guys rebel from your family like everybody else? Join Reformed Pagans!

Then stop personally interpreting it. Fortunately your advice was really bad to begin with. Scripture should always be personally interpreted provided that you do your homework. Don’t ever let someone else decide for you what a passage means.

Do you really and truly have trouble thinking of reasons why a believer might be required to observe the Sabbath on another day and would honor God in so doing?

Just a word of explanation. Those Christians who believe that we are redeemed by the Grace of God do not believe that we are free to become immoral beings who can do anything that we choose to do. We are indeed personally responsible for our actions. Because of the Grace of God, we will want to act with more responsibility and with a greater moral foundation in our lives. We will want to lead lives in which we serve God and serve our fellow man.

This doesn’t mean that we won’t make asses of ourselves sometimes. But it does mean that we have to keep trying to do better and to forgive others. I understand why atheists are critical of us. We can just be awful to people and mean-spirited. And meanwhile, so many atheists are gentle and generous. It seems almost like a paradox sometimes. Being “saved” by Grace means that heaven is a gift of God. It’s not something that we can ever be good enough to earn.

Many Christians believe that people of all faiths are saved by Grace. I do and I know that I have heard the Rev. Billy Graham (a Baptist) say that he believes so. (Actually, I don’t believe in hell as such.)

I very much agree with you on this. The Nicene Council on top of everything else just seemed far too limiting and haphazard. I find inspiration in the Bible, yes. But I can find that in many places including other religious texts and even in the wise words of people here. Some Christians might want to consider the place of the Holy Spirit in their lives. If I am seen to “cherry pick,” maybe the Holy Spirit guides my metaphorical hand and my thinking. And that’s not to say that anyone else should think as I do. I value other faiths. I “know” nothing. That’s why it’s a matter of faith based on my experiences.

FlyingDoDo, what were the words that were in the original texts before they were transcribed and translated 1600 years later into “perpetual Covenant” in the King James Version of the Bible? Is there a difference in the OT Covenant and the NT Covenant?

Also, you might find it helpful to try spiritual non-judgment. But then, maybe not.

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I would hope that all Christians believe we are saved by grace. Whats misunderstood is how we attain that grace.

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain by saying I believe. It comes by getting to know Jesus through His WORD and obeying His voice and observing to keep His commandments. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

FAITH AND THE COMMANDMENTS. Sometimes its hard not to believe what youve been taught all these years, but the scriptures are true and will come to pass as they are written.

EPHES. 2 [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Theres no doubt that only the grace of God will save you. Its a gift we do not deserve. We are ALL as filthy rags. We ALL have come up short. But to whom will this gift be given? According to the scriptures it will given to those who are observing to keep Gods 10 commandments. It will not be given to david koresh (a believer). It will not be given to jim jones (a believer). It will not be given to adolph hitler (a believer). It will not be given to the devil (a believer).

JAMES 2 [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble.

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Im not being spiritually judgemental. Im simply posting scriptures. The WORD of God. If you would like i could show you through the scriptures how some of the atheist on this board may attain eternal life whether they like it or not. Even if they remain atheist all their lives. I believe that the “judge not and be not judged” is talking about the things like the stonings that some were telling me i should do if i catch someone lighting a fire on the sabbath. As we both know, Jesus said he who is without sin may cast the 1st stone.

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An idol in general. Jeremiah is talking about the absurdity of praying to idols here. “You chop down a tree, shape the wood into a figure and decorate it and then you say that this thing, that you created, is worthy of your worship, even though it can’t move, can’t speak, can’t do you good or evil. Worship God, instead, who made everything, who makes the thunder and rain, who’s anger causes earthquakes, and who punishes nations when he’s angry with them.”

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This is one of my basic problems with Christianity. I agree that no human is perfect and that we all sin now and then. But where is it written (in the OT) that we are required to be perfect in order to attain heaven? Why would G-d, who made us imperfect, require perfection of us?

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Flying Dodo Have you read National Sunday Law? If you haven’t, it asserts (with plenty of citation of scripture) that keeping the sabbath on Sunday is the Mark Of The Beast. What do you think of this theory?

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Because it was written by men who had little to know understanding of cosmology, or science, or how our world really works. I get the complete opposite impression to you when I look up at the night sky. Why on Earth would a God who created 200 billion stars - in our galaxy alone - and created countless other galaxies in a universe so vast that it is beyond our comprehension care about planet orbiting a star half way through it’s lifespan. And even then he doesn’t care about all of the planet, but only deigns to send his son to a backwater part of Palestine. Not China, or Greece, or Italy. Beyond that he also cares about you, and you can know the mind of this divine architect based on a book largely written by Bronze Age scribes and compiled/recompiled over the centuries. And you also know which of these holy books properly describes this architect. And you know that, for some reason he chose not to share with us, he really cares about what we do with ourselves on a Sunday? It’s solipsism in the extreme, it’s wishful thinking that has no evidence.

I didn’t gather whether you were in favour of the 6000 year old hypothesis or not?

@ Zoe; No doubt, although to that I would return a simple ‘non serviam’ - I don’t wish to serve such an immoral god who creates us sick and commands us to be well through his trap in the Garden, especially one who commands us only to have faith in Jesus and all your sins with be redeemed. For example;
“He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalm 103:10-12)”

He hath removed our transgressions from us? No, I cannot abide by this for reasons I’ve gone into - even if they take the punishment, even if they confess on our behalf, nobody can remove our transgressions. We must shoulder the burden ourselves and take responsibility for our own actions. If I murder someone, then hear the words of Christ so that my transgressions are forgiven, does this make any difference to the victim’s family, to my mentality when I committed the crime, to my worth to society? I would say not, for we throw even repentant criminals in prison to protect society and give them a consequence for their actions.

“Blessed is he whose trangression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.”
–Psalm 32:1

Again, I don’t want sins to be covered, or forgiven. This is not justice.

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
–II Corinthians 5:17
Old things are passed away, and you are ‘a new creature’. Except you are not, because it was still you who committed the sin, you cannot change that short of a time machine. So if all that being ‘saved’ is living this lie, I would rather serve my fellow man and be accountable to him than pretend it is moral to scapegoat a man who was crucified 2000 years ago.

I’m aware of Billy Graham’s somewhat unorthodox views of Hell, but let’s not kid ourselves - there are still many that buy into this lake of fire stuff, who believe that I deserve eternal torture and they do not. Even if Hell is just separation from God, well, that’s not much better, since you’re getting everlasting reward based on belief over actions (although being in the company of such a being for all eternity sounds like a nightmare to me - right now I am seemingly separated from God, and none the worse for it). By using the critical thought processes that he surely endowed me with I am condemned from the get-go. Would he rather I not use them? That I was credulous my entire life?

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“Darwinism” is science, not religion. Perhaps if you read more than just your version of the Bible you’d understand that.

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No direspect kanicbird, but you cannot claim in truth that you"KNOW" you just believe (as many others do). Knowledge can be proven,you can only prove that you read, heard, or believed the person who wrote or taught you what you choose to believe. No one can prove that God said anything to any one, some believe God spoke to Moses,and many Bible characters but it is just taking their word. I doubt you are the final authority on what God wants,or says. The God you like to quote is not the same loving,forgiving God that Polycarp and some others believe in.

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You do not “KNOW” the Bible was inspired You “BELIEVE” the people who said it was inspired by God; nor was it written by God It can be proven that humans wrote the Bible and claimed it to be God’s word.

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One cannot prove the scriptures are God’s word by the Scriptures; if they are trying to prove anything a God said or did. The Writings of all religions were the writings and sayings of other humans in a different time, and how does one telll what is true when there are so many contradictions? People seem to pick what seems to please themselves.

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I was looking for a something a bit more specific…

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No, i have not read that. Fact is the only 2 books ive ever read are KJV bible and the Babe Ruth story…the 1st one which began with “i was a bad boy”. But I have looked into the mark

REV.14 [9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, and receive his MARK IN HIS FOREHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

above scripture sign – hand - forehead (between the eyes) - cup of indignation – the bad guys

below scriptures sign – hand - between thine eyes (forehead) - the LORDS LAW – the good guys

EXOD.13 [9] And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee UPON THINE HAND, and for A MEMORIAL BETWEEN THINE EYES, that the LORD’s law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

DEUT.6 [2] That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.[8] And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES.[9] And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates

JAMES 5 [7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN.[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Until you receive the early and latter rain? Whats that mean and what must you do to receive these rains? Anything to do with which “mark” you accept?

DEUT.11 [13] And it shall come to pass, IF YE SHALL HEARKEN DILIGENTLY UNTO MY COMMANDMENTS which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,[14] That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. [18] Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for A SIGN UPON YOUR HAND, THAT THEY MAY BE AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN YOUR EYES.[19] And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.[20] And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:[21] That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.[22] For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

DocCathode, the above scripture says in order to receive the early and latter rain, you must diligently keep the 10 commandments. Deut.11 goes on to say they will be for a sign on your hand and forehead (frontlets between your eyes). Verse 21 is speaking of the 1000 yr period of rest (the Kingdom of God) which the Lord sware to the fathers to give them. Hmmm…Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

REV.22 [4] And they shall see his face; and HIS NAME SHALL BE IN THEIR FOREHEADS.[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through gates of the city.

Yup. Says the same thing in last chapter of Revelations. HIS name in their foreheads. They who keep the ten commandments of God will enter the gates of the land promised to the fathers for the 1000 yr period of rest. So i guess not keeping the sabbath could be a sign of the beast. But no less a sign than the other nine commandments. DocCathode, the 10 commandments are not that hard to follow. Its the testimony written within the new testament that is hard to follow. Least ways for me

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FlyingDoDo, you still haven’t explained how you justify ignoring Moses’ instructions for keeping the Sabbath.

I refer you to Exodus 35:

“Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, ‘These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.’”

It’s hard to see how this can be read as a parable. It’s right after he hands down the Ten Commandments. He’s very specific that these instructions come straight from God, just like the Ten Commandments.

If Christians need to keep the Saturday Sabbath in order to be saved, shouldn’t that include keeping the Saturday Sabbath the way Moses said it was to be kept? Shouldn’t they follow God’s law the way that Orthodox Jews do?

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Or why your word is better than a Muslim, who has equal justification for telling me that I need to pray five times a day and go to congregation on Friday;

"O you who believe! when the call is made for prayer on Friday, then hasten to the remembrance of God and leave off trading; that is better for you, if you know." (Qur'an 62:9)
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This may be the most sensible thing I’ve ever seen you post.

Thing is, from an outsider’s perspective, any passionate proponent of any religion sounds like you. A proselytizing Muslim knows, a proselytizing Hindu knows, a proselytizing Mormon or even a Scientologist knows. All beliefs are held with utter certainty, yet are often totally contradictory.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that makes me think you are any more right than anyone else who makes similar claims. I acknowledge the unshakeability of your beliefs, but you are no more nor less right to me, than the hypothetical Muslim quoted by Mr. Kobayashi above.

159

You are being silly. :smiley:

Worshipping the Sun is not the same as an Easter service unless you want to play games and invent new meanings for words.
And the word Easter, used, pretty much only in English–the overwhelming majority of Christians use a word based on their translations of “Passover”–comes from a Germanic deity that seems to be cognate with the word East and has no connection to Ishtar or Astarte, so you are including factual errors in your claims. In fact, by trying to link “Easter” with “Ishtar,” you are making the absurd claim that all of Christianity for its entire 1900 year history, is basing its worship on the use of a word that did not even enter any Christian denomination until a single country at the far end of Europe picked it up in the seventh century.

When you base your claims on factual errors, you will have to excuse us if we simply smile and dismiss your nonsense.

160

I’ll go you one better than that: the central emphasis of the message of Jesus was about the spirit of the law outweighing the letter of the law whenever they should conflict. That the written law, important though it is, is just the codification and expression of the spirit. He deliberately set up juxtapositional situations that required people to pick one or the other in order to make his point.