I’m about to graduate from college with a degree in the humanities, but I have recently decided that I would like to go to medical school. I’ve been accepted into a postbaccalaureate premedical program, which basically gives you the requisite courses for med school in a year. The program is very well respected at a prestigious institution and has a hundred precent acceptance rate into medical school, so basically, I feel like I am admitted into medical school.
What I’m worried about, though, is the tremendous amount of debt that medical students go into. Everyone tells me not to worry about this, but it’s pretty scary. This program itself costs $30,000, and medical school is easily that much per year, for four years.
So my question to you, dear Dopers, for those of you who are familiar with people who went through the American medical school system, is how crippling is the debt? How long does it take to pay it off? Do you know people who have struggled/failed to do so? Who couldn’t get employment after finishing medical school? And is the debt required a good reason to choose to go into an allied field, like nursing, instead? Thanks!
The most important thing is to do what you want to do. It is easy to think with short-term blinders on now but this is your life you are talking about now. If you go to medical school, you will probably be in the same profession for the next 40 years or so.
If you choose this path, you will have to pay $30,000 for the program and let’s say $40,000 a year for medical school. You may not rack up that much in debt if you have other sources of payment such as parents but let’s say you have to pay for the whole thing. That would equal $190,000 at a low interest rate on your student loans.
A full doctor will earn somewhere between let’s say $100,000 a year and $800,000 a year depending on the specialty. That is a pretty good income and it is supposed to be for what they go through and the responsibility they bare.
The student loan debt will be between 2x salary and, more likely, about 1X it. You can’t get much better than that especially spread over many years.
From your question, I don’t think you understand the overall concerns. Becoming a doctor is very, very hard in the beginning. Legislation has been proposed in many states to limit resident’s shifts to 80 hours a week but that is often considered too controversial and limiting to the system. Many residents live, breath and sleep at the hospital for several years before they make real money and get to have what most of us consider a life. During that time, they don’t make all that much money and are hurting all around. If you want to be a general practitioner, there are often extreme start-up costs beyond that.
You will make money and the system is designed so that you won’t default on your student loans because you won’t have time to spend your paycheck elsewhere as a resident. After that, you can make a good living and things settle down some.
I never went to med school but I studied the issue. 200k isn’t unheard of as far as med school debt goes.
You can get your tuition paid for either in full or in part by doing things like joining the military or working with the government in undeveloped areas. Also, I don’t have the chart on me, but I found a chart once listing the in state & out of state tuition costs for med school. Some states had in state tuition taht was only about 10k and out of state that was only about 20k. So one state may cost 100k more than another for a medical education.
200k in debt sounds like alot, and it is, but over a 50 year career it is not gigantic.
My sister went into a quarter of million worth (yup, $250K) for her medical degree (she goes to a very highly ranked private school, though).
Nope, she doesn’t seem concerned whatsoever.
My sister talks about post-residency opening salaries of 150K with distaste (she thinks they’re too low).
Honestly, and this is my biased view of it as a non-doctor, but her more expensive medical education seemed like a less risky proposition than my law degree (which was cheaper by about half). Granted she’s going to graduate somewhere in the top 15% of her class or something ridiculous but I know a ton of doctors (1/2 my family) who didn’t do as well as her in school and still ended up with 6 figure jobs and decent residencies.
Anyway, my personal take is that you can find X number of people who will tell you that going to grad school is a risky proposition and spells DOOOOOOOM (I can’t tell you how many people prophesied my eventual financial downfall and long-term unemployment when I went to lawschool). I think you have to question whether or not you believe in yourself to say “screw the odds, I’m going to make it.” Because that’s what I did, as did my sister and we’re all the better for it.
Education is an investment in yourself. If you’re committed to it, I think it’s the best debt you can ever take on.
Shagnasty, I appreciate your concern, but just clear this up for the whole thread, I’m well aware of what medical school/residency entails. Both my parents are doctors, and I remember my mother never being home during her residency. Also, they have their own practice that they own, so I’m aware also of the startup costs you mention. In addition, the program I’m entering is designed so that only people with some awareness of the field can enter. The huge time commitment is also something that has me questioning whether it’s right for me, but my greatest concern is the money. Thank you for your comments though, everyone seems to be saying the same thing, that the loan amounts pale in comparison to your salary. Keep the advice coming!
Before I went to med school, I made a deal with two different organizations to provide me with a total of $24K a year throughout med school in exchange for four years of service in rural eastern Kentucky (my home). (I went to an excellent but inexpensive state school, and I lived cheaply, so the $24K/year was enough for me.)
I am a year into the “repayment”, and I’m glad I did it in retrospect, but I got extremely in that the kind of doctor I wanted to be when I started med school was the same kind of doctor I wanted to be when I got out. Most med students change their mind about that, usually pretty late in the game. So while it has worked out well for me, I would discourage anyone from making such a deal.
As for the traditional route–yes, it’s a lot of money, and it’s a great big payment for a long time. But any job as a doctor is going to pay enough that you’ll be able to afford the payments without a major dip in lifestyle.
The problem is that if you ever decide you don’t want to be a doctor, that payment still applies, and it’s a much bigger bite out of most other salaries. There are a lot of doctors out there who would have quit long ago if they didn’t have that enormous monthly payment hanging over their heads.
In short, if going to medical school is something you really and truly want to do, then borrow the money and do it. If you decide later that you don’t want to do it, it might be hard to get out without financial ruin, but no investment is totally without risk.
I have a friend who just finished her residency and is now a GP at a local clinic. She’s still over 100K in debt to the varioius loan providers, but it’s not a major concern since she makes nearly that much every year now. She plans to have it paid off in about 5 years.
In my fairly uneducated opinion, if medicine is your thing, and you think it’s a profession you’ll stick with for at least a decade after you graduate from med school, then go for it, and don’t let the big numbers scare you, since it’s all relative.
Shagnasty, while I appreciate your sympathy, you are a little out of date. I did the 90 hour workweeks sleeping in the hospital in the late '80s, when I used up two years of my life training in general surgery. Back then any proposal to limit our hours was considered crippling to the system. However, while I was a resident, somewhere in a hospital not far away from us, Libby Zion died. Changes started.
No state legislation is required. The certifying body of all residencies, the ACGME, has extremely stringent regulations concerning “duty hours”. They are defined and covered to a fare-thee-well and they cannot exceed 80 hours and cannot reach 80 hours for every workweek or you are in violation. There must be one complete day off for every six days on, and there must be ten hours off between shifts. All resident hours must be chillingly documented as if you were going for an IRS audit. If you fail, you get warnings to correct. If you show a documented pattern of abuse, you lose accreditation. Then all your residents go elsewhere (St. Elsewhere’s?).
I am a program director of a small subspecialty residency program, and just went through an ACGME site visit a few months ago. It was more agonizing than an audit - I’ve compared it to a bankruptcy (though I’ve never been bankrupt). We had to prove duty hours down to the minute even though our residents never work more than 50 hours a week.
Exactly. Although gabriela certainly knows this better than I do, I can promise you that the residency programs most strongly opposed to this 80 hour work week restriction, surgery, put up a huge hissy-fit that resulted in a major showdown with folks such as the ACGME and now are certainly in compliance with the 80 hour limit.
There are still some doctors, programs, and even residents that disagree with the limit, but the limit is definitely in force.
I went through medical school with the Military paying my way (Health Professions Scholarship Program) They paid tuition, fees, books, and $400 per month tax free (this was back in the late 70’s) I graduated owing them 3 yrs, 5 mos service, and did my 3 year residency in Family Practice in the Air Force-did not count for my payback time but no additional committment for the residency. Excellent training in the military but , again late 70’s terrible work hours. (my personal record was 114 hours of work from 7Am Monday morning till getting off at 11 Pm on Saturday night- I slept 5 hours on Tuesday night and 5 hours on Thursday night) I’m glad they are starting to get away from those hours-I called it 3 years of Sleep Deprivation Training.
You could look into the Indian Health, Rural Health, or Public Health Service. Some cities will help you with your medical school debt in exchange for a few years of service for them.
I’m not sure how much you can deduct on your income taxes for educational expenses.
There was a lady in the class behind me that was 40 when she started medical school. “Where will you be in 5 years if you don’t go to medical school”
I’ll probably end up a hoodlum, roaming the streets, sticking up little old ladies for their purses with two fingers in an old coat, pushing passing business men in suits into puddles, and other minor vagaries of modern bohemian living.
I told that to the admissions committe and I’m still on the waitlist. I was shocked. Do these people have no concern for public safety or what I might become if they don’t give me direction and some activity to keep me off the streets?
I think analyses typically over-state Medical School debt burden as a reason for or against Medical School and don’t fully looks at the context this debt is likely to be repaid in.
If the average Medical Schools Student has ~$150,000 in loans, the average STARTING salary for Docs in 2002 was upwards of about $150,000.
All I am saying is compare average starting salaries for most professions (e.g. Computers here) and look at the average debt for college and Med School really isn’t THAT scary especially when comparing average likely starting salary, chances of unemployment and likely future earnings.
I think much of the worrying about debt in Med School comes from the concept of too many zeros and the likely first experience with “mortgage concepts” and “investment in Human Capital” (themselves) and that leads to some (slightly) fuzzy logic & self-fear mongering – but not from what the financial reality is likely to be.
One thing I have learned in my own search for what to do with my life is not to let money be a factor in what you choose to do. Granted I will be studying Greek and Hebrew Exegesis while you sit in Biochemistry but I think the decision process is the same. You have to figure out what you want to do and what are your motives behind it. Money is a very lousy motive.
As someone on here said (I tried to find it but I couldn’t…my contacts are getting foggy. Time for bed), there are doctors who would get the hell out if it wasn’t for the money they have to pay back.
Explore your motives and go what is right for you. It is good that you are already familiar with the sacrifices. That is a step in the right direction.
I’d agree with that to an extent, as long as your desire is in something that will enable you to make a living. For every doctor wishing they could quit and go be a beach bum, there’s a beach bum tired of living in a shack and wishing they could go be a doctor. There’s a happy medium to find. So, yeah, follow your dreams, but be realistic, too. Years ago, I was flipping channels with my brother-in-law and happened across an interview with a very pissed off waitress. I think it was on a news report about the economy or something. Her line has always stuck with me: “I have a master’s degree in French literature, and here I am waiting tables!” Imagine that line being yelled with sheer outrage. We laughed for a long time.