Nobody is firing anybody for not working Christmas, especially if done in accordance with policy. The idea that there are thousands of movie-theater employees working Xmas for fear of loss of their jobs is a strawman thrown out by VCO3 etc in an effort to build their non-case.
[QUOTE=even sven]
I think it’s kind of funny how people will say “If you don’t like working holidays, quit the job”, but then when somebody says “I didn’t like working holidays so I quit the job” they are suddenly lazy and ureliable.
FWIW, when I’d do this, I’d give a full thirty days notice and dicuss my decision with the managment and it was all very amiable and agreeable. They couldn’t give me holiday’s off because of corporate policy, but they couldn’t do without me. Usually I’d get rehired with a pay raise. Capitalism in action- it works both ways. All of them will and have given me stellar references. I’m a hard worker, but my family is worth more than nine dollars and hour. There will and have been other jobs, but some of my family members didn’t survive past those Christmases.
Part of the reason why jobs give people holidays off to be with their family and not just random days is that the whole “family gathering” thing doesn’t work if everyone kind of has random days off. If nobody is working, then everyone can be together. And maybe this isn’t a big deal when most your family lives close by, but many people have family members that can only make it anywhere near home once every year or two, and having synchronized holidays gives them a chance to see the entire family during this short time. Perhaps not a perfect system, but it’s the one that Western society has been using ever since they decided the sabbath was a sacred day to not work and to be with your family.
I am all for voluntary holiday work. And I am all for essential holiday work. And I have nothing against people that patronize workplaces on holidays- I think the whole “you are causing someone to miss their chance to be with their family thing” is something that doesn’t even cross through most people’s mind and certainly isn’t something they can control.
But I feel like giving people the choice to be with their families on holidays without losing their livlihood when it is possible is just- I don’t know- one of those things people should just do out of respect for each other. I guess I’m an idealist or hopelessly naive, but I don’t see why simple respect and regard for each other’s lives and humanity isn’t something that can’t cross the boss-worker divide. We have a saying here- Nous sommes ensemble- we are all together. Friends say it to friends. Strangers say it strangers. Workers say it to customers. Bosses say it to workers. We ARE all together, and I think we ought to act like it.
and um Tomcat before you start calling people names, why don’t you tell me what you did for Christmas this year, and then I will tell you what I did.
[/QUOTE]
Well, you have to admit this sounds a bit better than the first time around. (And your first sentence there is quite appropriate. Good call.)
I’ve had far too many experiences with people that are completely unreliable during the holidays. They ask for X, you agree on Y, and they force X by not showing up. As stated, the balancing act of a business making money to the needs of the employees is not all smiles and happiness. And when one person forces a situation, it can really screw with the other employees. As I was trying to point out, it is not just worker vs. employer, but also worker vs. worker vs. management vs. owner vs. client…and simply letting the market forces exist as they are seems to be the fairest way to deal with the situation.
I was sick with the flu this time around, so I lay in bed all Christmas day. Doubt either of us are going to come to any real conclusions on our respective work ethics with that one. But as stated above, I do normally work on weekday Christmas’ because I get a ton of work done with the lack of disturbances. I did work on the New Year’s weekend, though.
-Tcat
[QUOTE=even sven]
and um Tomcat before you start calling people names, why don’t you tell me what you did for Christmas this year, and then I will tell you what I did.
[/QUOTE]
I just read your other thread.
I apologize for my harsh words and characterization of even sven. I was carried away on my crusade of righteousness and made improper assumptions of even sven’s character. By his well thought-out response delivered without acrimony he proved himself a better man than I. Mea Culpa.
-Tomcat
[QUOTE=Tomcat]
By his well thought-out response delivered without acrimony he proved himself a better man than I. Mea Culpa.
-Tomcat
[/QUOTE]
Just FTR, even sven is a woman.
Well then, she is a better woman than I, too! Damn, she’s got me beat on both fronts.
-Tcat
[QUOTE=even sven]
I think it’s kind of funny how people will say “If you don’t like working holidays, quit the job”, but then when somebody says “I didn’t like working holidays so I quit the job” they are suddenly lazy and ureliable.
[/QUOTE]
“If you don’t like working holidays, get a different job”.
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Close. If you don’t work the holiday, you work 40 hours and get 8 hours holiday straight time.
If you do work the holiday, you work 40 hours and get 8 hours holiday time and a half.
Everyone still works only 40 hours.
So person A works 40 hours and gets $480.
Person B works 40 hours and gets $520.
[/QUOTE]
The people who work Christmas are still getting ripped. The union should be up in arms.
At the nylon plant I worked in, if you worked the holiday shift, you got holiday pay PLUS a full time and a half on top of that. That way if you worked it, you actually got paid for it. We fought to get holiday shifts.
[QUOTE=even sven]
I think it’s kind of funny how people will say “If you don’t like working holidays, quit the job”, but then when somebody says “I didn’t like working holidays so I quit the job” they are suddenly lazy and unreliable.
[/QUOTE]
Except that’s not what happened. Someone who takes a job knowing that they are expected to work the holidays, works up until the holidays and then quits is the very definition of unreliable. Someone who doesn’t want to work the holidays shouldn’t quit, they shouldn’t take the job under false pretenses in the first place. That’s what we have been saying, not that nonsense.
Obviously none of this applies if you have some sort of secret unspoken deal with your supervisor or if the management wasn’t honest with you when you applied.
[QUOTE=RickJay]
The people who work Christmas are still getting ripped. The union should be up in arms.
At the nylon plant I worked in, if you worked the holiday shift, you got holiday pay PLUS a full time and a half on top of that. That way if you worked it, you actually got paid for it. We fought to get holiday shifts.
[/QUOTE]
If you work on, say, Christmas day, you get 8 hours of straight time, plus 8 hours of time and a half holiday pay.
So, instead of $80 (at 10/hour), you get $80, plus $120 dollars in holiday pay. How is that a rip-off?
[QUOTE=RickJay]
The people who work Christmas are still getting ripped. The union should be up in arms.
At the nylon plant I worked in, if you worked the holiday shift, you got holiday pay PLUS a full time and a half on top of that. That way if you worked it, you actually got paid for it. We fought to get holiday shifts.
[/QUOTE]
Shouldn’t have hit send yet.
There isn’t a union.
Also, we try to have a plant-wide shutdown that encompasses Christmas and New Year and we managed that for this past season. So, no one was working this Christmas or New Year. Because of our policy, every non-salaried employee still got 16 straight hours of holiday pay extra in their paychecks.
[QUOTE=hajario]
Except that’s not what happened. Someone who takes a job knowing that they are expected to work the holidays, works up until the holidays and then quits is the very definition of unreliable. Someone who doesn’t want to work the holidays shouldn’t quit, they shouldn’t take the job under false pretenses in the first place. That’s what we have been saying, not that nonsense.
Obviously none of this applies if you have some sort of secret unspoken deal with your supervisor or if the management wasn’t honest with you when you applied.
[/QUOTE]
. . . .or they embody the concept of “at will” employment. If you can fire me whenever you damn well please, then I can walk out whenever I damn well please. Fogive me if I’m not paralyzed with regret at the loss of a shitty job (an option that many don’t have). There is some serious self-righteous tongue clucking going on here with pronouncements of “job pride” and “career development.” I have a law degree from a top tier school. I have an undergrad degree from a highly ranked college. Both are with honors. I work for a large law firm and I generally put in in excess of 60 hours a week. I know work. At the same time, I don’t regret for a minute splitting from a retail hardware job on five minutes notice when I found out the manager was going to make me work my birthday. Think I’m lazy? I think that these “job pride” in shit jobs folks are boring blow hards. Get fucking real. :rolleyes:
That’s really noble, considering that it’s not your employment, job, or company that utilizes low-paid workers in one of the few industries possibly open on Christmas Day.
Mighty big o’ you there, whole bean. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=whole bean]
. . . .or they embody the concept of “at will” employment. If you can fire me whenever you damn well please, then I can walk out whenever I damn well please. Fogive me if I’m not paralyzed with regret at the loss of a shitty job (an option that many don’t have). There is some serious self-righteous tongue clucking going on here with pronouncements of “job pride” and “career development.” I have a law degree from a top tier school. I have an undergrad degree from a highly ranked college. Both are with honors. I work for a large law firm and I generally put in in excess of 60 hours a week. I know work. At the same time, I don’t regret for a minute splitting from a retail hardware job on five minutes notice when I found out the manager was going to make me work my birthday. Think I’m lazy? I think that these “job pride” in shit jobs folks are boring blow hards. Get fucking real. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
“At will” employment, the temp agency industry and the restaurant/tourism industry are good examples. Employers need to understand what goes around comes around. If you’re willing to send me home without pay on a moment’s notice, then don’t be surprised if I suddenly come to the conclusion my working on Christmas or any other particular day isn’t worth my return on investment, and I send myself home. If it’s legal, the local job market can handle it, it’s “just business,” and you should accept it with a professional demeanor & smile.
[QUOTE=whole bean]
. . . .or they embody the concept of “at will” employment. If you can fire me whenever you damn well please, then I can walk out whenever I damn well please. Fogive me if I’m not paralyzed with regret at the loss of a shitty job (an option that many don’t have). There is some serious self-righteous tongue clucking going on here with pronouncements of “job pride” and “career development.” I have a law degree from a top tier school. I have an undergrad degree from a highly ranked college. Both are with honors. I work for a large law firm and I generally put in in excess of 60 hours a week. I know work. At the same time, I don’t regret for a minute splitting from a retail hardware job on five minutes notice when I found out the manager was going to make me work my birthday. Think I’m lazy? I think that these “job pride” in shit jobs folks are boring blow hards. Get fucking real. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
OK. What does any of this have to do with what I wrote? I said nothing about laziness. I said that it was being unreliable. If they told you when you started that you would have to work your birthday and you agreed, then you were in the wrong. If the employer told you that you would have your birthday off and then they reneged, they were in the wrong. If it wasn’t stated one way or the other, meh, you made a choice and they made a choice.
This thread is about a guy who worked at a movie theater where it was understood at the beginning that he would have to work on Christmas. He agreed to this stipulation and then bitched about it and had the further temerity to call those of us who chose to patronize businesses that are opened on Christmas “assholes.”
[QUOTE=The The]
SOME of you here must remember back when almost everything was closed EVERY SUNDAY
[/QUOTE]
Yeah – that was before the people who are the real Americans, if you know what I mean, found it necessary to bolt “Judeo-” in front of “Christian Nation” like Ray Milland’s head on Rosie Greer’s body.
O.P.,
I’ll bet you think the sewage treatment plant should operate on the holiday. Or should we just “let it go” for a day?
Who should be off:
How about radio and TV station personnel?
Phone company employees?
Police?
Fire Department employees?
911 Operators?
Bus Drivers? Airline Pilots?
Hotel Employees?
Corrections Officers?
Electric Company Employees?
Doctors?
Nurses?
Nursing Home Employees?
Coroners?
[QUOTE=jali]
O.P.,
I’ll bet you think the sewage treatment plant should operate on the holiday. Or should we just “let it go” for a day?
Who should be off:
<SNIP>
Coroners?
[/QUOTE]
Not the OP, but, I think letting coroners have the day off would be OK. It’s not like the subjects of their work will be any deader come tomorrow.
This is sad and somewhat morbid, but I would think that even if they weren’t getting deader they would be getting, um, decomposier. And that, given holiday accident/suicide statistics, some places might run out of freezers. Or whatever.
I used to work for Disneyland, and I loved working Christmases while I “had” to. Eventually I got enough senority that I could request Christmas Day off. Even then, I often chose to work it anyway. People were always - without exception - happier and easier to deal with on Christmas Day. Particularly my fellow employees. Plus double-time. What’s not to like?
[QUOTE=hajario]
OK. What does any of this have to do with what I wrote?
[/QUOTE]
I was not specifically targeting you; though, some of the points I make go to what you wrote.
[QUOTE=hajario]
I said nothing about laziness. I said that it was being unreliable. If they told you when you started that you would have to work your birthday and you agreed, then you were in the wrong. If the employer told you that you would have your birthday off and then they reneged, they were in the wrong. If it wasn’t stated one way or the other, meh, you made a choice and they made a choice.
[/QUOTE]
Nah. Not wrong. I was told I would work when scheduled and they would try to accommodate things, but their schedule was the trump. I guess it would fall into your “meh” category, but in my opinion so does a movie theatre position in an at-will environment. If you work in an “at will” situation, where you can get fired/laid off/down-sized whenever management wants/needs to for whatever reason or no reason at all, the flip-side is you can quit whenever you deem it necessary - no explanation, no notice required – regardless of any “representation” you made in the past, promises are cheap.* That’s how it works. This concept of “notice” in these situations is often laughable because the worker is all too often an expendable commodity to the employer. So Mr. Movie Theatre Manager can tell me, “we expect you here on Christmas,” when I take the job in August, but so long as the environment is still in all ways “at-will,”** then I’m not wrong for working to that point and quitting. His expectation was foolish because it was not supported by any sort of reciprocation. (As an aside, if you have a good relationship with an employer and don’t want to put them in a bind, you let them know in advance and do what you can to take the heat off. That’s a moral decision, though. Not a business one. Lest I sound like to much of a weaselly bastard, it’s also the decision I have made time and again, at great expense, in situations where I admired, respected and liked my employer).
*I will readily concede that a series of short term stints at shit jobs isn’t likely going to build a resume, but I doubt folks working at these shit jobs are looking to build a resume.
**As opposed to some sort of contractual employment. I recognize that by its nature any employment arrangement is contractual. By contract I mean the sort of employment contract that provides some sort of job protection for the employee in the form of appeals for wrongful termination, severance pay, etc. and recourse for the employer in the event of a breach.
[QUOTE=hajario]
This thread is about a guy who worked at a movie theater where it was understood at the beginning that he would have to work on Christmas. He agreed to this stipulation and then bitched about it and had the further temerity to call those of us who chose to patronize businesses that are opened on Christmas “assholes.”
[/QUOTE]
I think that the “agreement” to work Christmas was more along the lines of an unenforceable “promise,” so I don’t see the problem. Labor can react to the market to. It always amuses me when folks that are normally pro-business act offended when labor reacts to the market but aren’t when wages do.
I don’t agree with OP calling the movie patrons assholes, and it makes me wonder how diverse the area he lives in is. Even in little old Atlanta, there are enough Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists and robots to keep the lights on over Christmas. Making them not work on December 25 seems just as unreasonable as making me not work on Yom Kippur (though I’d take the day off, if made to).
[QUOTE=JohnT]
That’s really noble, considering that it’s not your employment, job, or company that utilizes low-paid workers in one of the few industries possibly open on Christmas Day.
Mighty big o’ you there, whole bean. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
So opinions on this matter are limited to movie house proprietors? Sorry, I missed the sign. Well, at least let me say then, upon reflection, my mind has been changed: ticketeers should be chained to their turnstyles at the beginning of the Advent season only to be loosed on Epiphany, lest the line for “Dreamgirls” back up past the restrooms. No popcorn, you say!!