Gaudere:
Forgot this in the last post. 
(I’d ask you to insert it for me, but I’m afraid where you’d tell me to stick it)
Unless my grammar-sense (I was bitten by a radioactive English teacher) is wrong, I think your post here does a good job of that too. Isn’t it whose?
Whoops, I see a few more posts sneaked in also. Scylla, what Gore said was that not all the votes were counted. You are calling him a liar because all the ballots were machine counted- that is not the same thing. Your point is well taken in comparing these FL counties using punchcards to other counties which may also use punchcards. Yes, in those counties probably a lot of other votes were not counted either. But since the races in those states were not being affected by the undercount not much fuss is being raised.
Would you fix that for me?
(You try typing one-handed while you daughter sits in you lap trying to pick your nose. It’s a little distracting)
Yes, counts are probably incomplete, but if the margin of victory is larger than the number of uncounted ballots, then the incomplete result is decisive anyway.
You would be in the minority on this one. This represents about 2% of that county.
Agreed, but with the caveat that machine counts are incomplete, and the Gore hasn’t lost either since the margin of error is many times larger than the margin of victory.
I belive that’s exactly what I’m saying, A machine count is not a full count. Calling me names may make you feel good, but it really isn’t a rebuttal that anyone will respect.
There are ballots in Florida that have never been counted because the machine is incapable of counting them and no human has ever tried. In most elections, these ballots would be insignificant because counting couldn’t change the outcome. In this case it could and therefore they must be counted for the result to be legitimate.
tj
Tejota:
You’re responding reasonably, but you’re putting words in Gore’s mouth. That is not what he said.
(Sorry about the insult though)
Indirectly that I’ve been using the terms ‘ballot’ and ‘vote’ interchangeably, which probably confuses my point somewhat.
What I should be saying is that all of the ballots have been processed by machine, but not all of the votes have been registered.
So whether “not all votes have been counted” is a lie or not turns into a semantic argument. I depends on what the meaning of ‘vote’ and ‘count’ is.
tj
I woulden’t go so far as saying Gore lied. Now hes getting good about telling halftruths that if you reason it out in some wierd way he was telling the truth. Gore however has lost, hes lost and lost and lost. He just doesen’t seem to get that considering how many times hes lost even if he manages to win once he will probably lose 10 times more. Though I doubt there is anything he can do, if even Supreme Court rulings in favor of him don’t get him the presidency I don’t think anything can.
He learned the lying from Clinton, can you define what “is” means? Gore even seemed slightly reputable before he became VP:)
Well, to be honest, I am not particularly fond of his choice of words here either…But, to give the other side of the story…it is a reactive thing to the way that the Republicans have been talking about recount after recount. Their language in this regard has been at least as misleading…It was almost to the point where I thought “hell, why don’t count each vote recounted as another whole recount!”
And, when it comes to complete fabrications, it is still some of our good conservative friends (such as Reagan’s son) who take the cake for not being only a bit misleading but in fact making up complete baldfaced lies. [See my deconstruction of a horrendous article posted on reagan.com and brought to our attention by Uncle Beer at the end of this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46135&pagenumber=3. Dammit! I wasted some precious time on this so you guys better read it! ]
I really despair, when reading this thread from beginning to end. “Great Debates” this is not; childish ranting and raving comparable to what I hear from my kids it equates to. And this is what passes for worthwhile posting on a site devoted to the smartest human, who attempts to swat aside ignorance and stupidity with intelligence and clarity. Shame, folks, shame (except for the fun regarding inertebrates; you learn a new word every day…).
I don’t think I am, let me illustrate by quoting him directly.
for the record, here’s what he said:
[http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/27/gore.transcript/](CNN Transcript of Gore’s Remarks)
It seems clear to me that he is defining terms, a ballot is a piece of a paper, but a vote is not. A vote is intent(Ballot is my term, Gore never mentions it).
Given his definition of ‘vote’, it seems clear to me that he is referring to the fact that machine counts missed many votes when they were counting the ballots, and that hand-counts, which could have counted these votes were not allowed to finish. (Dade county in particular)
So, no, I don’t think I put any words in his mouth. I used different words the he did, but the intended meaning is the same.
tj
I don’t have time to read all the posts before mine, so this might have been posted, but if, by chance it hasn’t, I’ll go ahead.
You are kidding, right? Let’s see if I had to pick the “unschooled idiot” out of the two, I’d definately pick Bush. Gore is much better speaker, I think that he conveys more respect than Bush. I don’t know how Bush can expect to be taken seriously when it seems like he’s going to make some terrible gaffe with every word out of his mouth. It seriously pains me to listen to Bush, I feel he is struggling not to just start drooling all over himself. It’s a shame to see that he probably took a spot away from a more worthy applicant to Yale. He’s a fool.
Should read Gore is A much better speaker. Does that count for irony?
Whats W’s desperate hurry? The American people are desperate for closure? Anybody see anybody writhing on the ground crying out for closure?
His handlers know his lead is thinner than a butterfly fart and could vanish in the next precinct, never mind county! We don’t have to have a President till Jan. 20. Hell, we could organize a hand balloted, hand counted election in the entire state in two weeks, if that “will of the people” is really what we’re after.
If Gore stares him down, W.'s bro will call together the Florida Legislature, they will deliberate, and solemnly affirm W. as etc.,etc, W. will most likely win, but not until he shows us all what he’s really made of.
Has W. even once, once, mind you, made reference to his losing the popular vote? I thought not. Can’t wait!
elucidator said:
Well, some Republicans are, but that’s only 'cus their guy is winning right now. Somehow I suspect that if the situation were reversed, they’d be talking about how every vote must be counted, etc.
yes, always nice to see unpartisan debates going on. Where did you say they were, again?
According to the Squawk Box people this morning (I gotta check to see how my stocks are doing!), there were 3 polls conducted yesterday: One reported that 60% of Americans want immediate closure on this thing (USA Today poll, I believe), one says 80% of Americans think Al Gore should concede (NY Post - which is admittedly one step above the National Enquirer, though if they polled New Yorkers that would be very significant.) and another (a national survey firm or network - forgot who) said 61% of people polled think George W. Bush won the election. These same people also said (50%) that they thought that Bush should have waited to declare himself the winner.
Scylla
FWIW, Tim Russert just said almost verbatim what you’ve been saying all along; specifically, that Gore was wrong for claiming that thousands of votes had never been cast, since they had all been run through a machine twice.
I’m not saying that any TV news proclamation is definitive of the truth, but when Tim Freakin’ Russert starts to agree with Scylla, it may be time to “certify” this GD.
Scylla: “I’ve come down hard on Mrs. Harris”.
Please get that thought out of my head.
Seriously, I don’t think Anyonme will know exactly who won for real.
Was every vote counted properly? No one knows.
The inventor of the machines used to count ballots/votes has been reported (Fox News Network) to have admitted that the accuracy rate expected is between 95-98%. This means that everywhere these machines were used may expect the same 2-5% kickout of rejected ballots. The reason for this discrepancy is due to HUMAN ERROR in not pushing the stylus completely through the ballot or not following the clearly printed instructions used by (I believe) all election boards that use these machines, that tell the voter to examine their ballot to insure that all holes are in fact punched cleanly with no “hanging chads” left behind.
I do NOT believe:
[ul]
[li]That the standards for one part of the country should be different than any another.[/li][li]That election rules/laws should be changed or set aside AFTER an election is held.[/li][li]That misunderstanding, confusion, lack of following direction, or senility removes personal responsibility in insuring that a vote be counted.[/li][li]That hand counting is more accurate because impartiality and concise standards of judgement in determining “the mind of the voter” are most certainly in question.[/li][li]That the Gore supporters have wanted the voices of our men and woman in the overseas military to be heard and in fact, quite the opposite seems to be the case (This is disingenuous to the utmost).[/li][li]That Gore won Florida’s 25 electorial votes.[/li][/ul]
All the ballots HAVE been counted. Some as much as 4 times. It appears to me that Gore is in his LEGAL right to continue to contest the election that he feels should be his due to his winning the popular vote…but…this country is NOT a democracy. It’s a constitutional republic and by the rules laid out in the constitution, Bush is the winner of the election and the contined petty manuevering and pontificating is NOT in the best interest of the country or Gore’s chances in 2004.
Stick a fork in him…he’s DONE.