I’m normally against obstruction politics. In this case it seems as if the republicans had every intention of ramming a bill through with a portion that would do nothing but slap down unions for the sake of slapping down unions. With arguably more harm than good coming from that part to a portion of their constituents, I’m fine with them taking a bit of a holiday and letting things grind to a halt. Think of it as a government shutdown in which nobody loses their checks.
The healthcare debate took a year, and while it’s arguable how much the debating changed the ultimate bill, that bill is characterized as being “shoved down” the people’s throats by the right wing machine.
This bill in Wisconsin has only been in existence for a little over a week, this bill really is being forced upon us. Just like in Heathcare, there is nothing wrong with local, state or even national debate of this issue. If the Democrats need to leave town in order to get attention for this bill, then that is the tactic they must use. With this attention, these senators are hearing from their constituents and they can decide how to vote, hopefully keeping these opinions in mind. Without this debate it would have been a strict party line vote and on to the next piece of legislation.
If the Senators had stayed in the Capitol to debate it, how much attention would this bill have gotten? This bill needs to be exposed to the light of day before it is voted upon and not hoped that it may be fixed at the next election.
Personally, I am not happy with the bill because it takes away bargaining and because all unions are not being treated equally, but debate and protest is good Democracy in action. This how democracy works, yes it can be ugly and chaotic at times, but people (left or tea) have the right (responsibility) to stand up and voice their opinions to their elected officials.
I would love to be there just to see democracy in action. I would have to cancel a long promised lunch date to do it, but I would love to participate in democracy. It’s been a long time since I have been tear-gassed.
Some words you may expect to be applied to Gov. Walken that have not been applied previously: “Reaganesque”, “presidential timber”, “rising star”…
Words that I apply, and will continue to apply: “Douche”, “douchebag”, “Douche of Earl, douche, douche”…
There are protests all over the state, bitch. Walker is like Mubarak now. He’ll be lucky to escape with his life.
Where? Glenbeulah? Except for Madison where are all these protests?
I also drove past the state building on sixth street in Milwaukee yesterday. I saw nothing.
Madison is the only place there are any confirmed protests. And that’s where they should be considering it’s the state capitol.
But how would you know? You’re not even in Wisconsin.
You’re insane. There just can’t be any other explanation.
I was going to stay out of this, because I didn’t want to participate in a pit thread, but you really are an ignorant shitstain, aren’t you? You didn’t see protests yourself, so they didn’t happen?
La Crosse, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Wausau, Appleton, Wauwautosa. I can find more if you feel you need them, but I don’t see the point.
To preempt what you’re going to say: yes these were students and teachers primarily, but that’s because people with transportation are DRIVING TO MADISON to protest. Is a teacher protest in Merrill really going to draw attention by itself? Going to Madison gets more coverage. Or are you one of those suburbanite conservatives who has no idea where a city like Merrill is?
Also, polls find anywhere from 52% (conservative pollster, WI residents) to 65% (presumably liberal pollster, WI voters) of Wisconsin residents OPPOSE the budget “repair” bill.
You’re in the minority, face it. Go away and let the adults talk.
Maybe I should run away to Illinois?
Oh, wait, I’m not a coward.
Whether he should or not (I think he should, but it doesn’t matter) Mr. Walker is eventually going to get what he wants. Sorry. You lose. But you can try again in November of '12 and then in '14.
This is stupid. The Democrats aren’t running away from anything, and it takes political courage to do what they did.
I don’t know, you sound a lot like Walker. Cowardice is (a) announcing the bill on a Friday, to try to downplay reaction, (b) not letting opposition lawmakers see the bill until the day that their committee considers it, and (c) refusing to even meet with opposition leaders to reach consensus.
It’s looking more and more like February of '12, but that’s neither here nor there. The offer has been put on the table - Walker can get the legislators back if he’s willing to take only the economic side of the bill, not the collective bargaining aspects. There are Republicans in the Senate willing to do that. If Walker agrees, the protests stop. If it’s truly a budget issue, that should be enough.
What the Democrats aren’t understanding this time around is that this isn’t turning into a Republican against Democrat fight, it’s turning into a union worker against non-union worker fight. The teacher walk-out and senator walk-out are turning some Democrats into Walker supporters.
Most workers do not belong to a union and for years all we hear in the newspapers is whiny union workers complaining the minute they don’t get everything they want. Even though these whiners are not usually the majority, no one wants to read about a bunch of fireman saying “sure that’s fair”. So the news sensationalizes the extreme and most Americans won’t read about actual issues they just read whatever the press wants to feature. Recent teacher walk-outs are reinforcing the whiny union worker stereotype at a time when most workers have had their pay and benefits cut so much deeper that the concessions in the bill.
Even though losing collective bargaining is supposedly the main issue everyone is protesting, the majority of quotes we read in newspaper articles, from the union members, were about them complaining about the pay concessions. So the union workers, to a certain extent, are hurting their own cause by not thinking before they speak. Them making this about the collective bargaining is a switch from the earliest news reports.
It’s such a messed up situation. Maybe next time people will remember to research their candidates before they vote instead of just watching TV commercials.
Did you even look at the earlier posts? This state isn’t 52% to 65% union, yet those are the numbers standing with the unions here.
Oh, and cite that most Americans have had their pay and benefits cut 10-20%?
Nonsense. They had to cross state lines because otherwise the State Patrol or the Capitol Police (Wisconsin has no “State Police” per se) could come and compel them to go to the capitol and do their jobs. Courage would be going to work and representing their constituents in the capitol. Not in a motel in Illinois. Up until this past election my State Senator was a Democrat. If he were involved in this I’d be on his back demanding he go to work! Even though he wouldn’t be representing what I want, I’d at least want him to work for the money he’s paid.
Show us a cite where most Americans don’t have to pay anything towards their pension nor towards their insurance.
They ARE doing their jobs. Couragously (unlike the Governor), and the Wisconsin cops have already said they aren’t going to compel jack shit.
This stupid move is blowing up in Wanker’s face. Trying to bust unions was not part of the deal people signed up for. He has now declared war on the working class, and turned a lot of Republicans (lots of teachers are Republicans - probably most) against him. He probably won’t live out the night. They’ll string him up over Lambeau Field. He’s probably looking to steal some state money and skip to Canada as we speak.
Cite that this is true of Wisconsin state employees? (Hint: You’re not going to find it. It’s false.) Bear in mind that Wisconsin state employees already make 5% less than state private employees when both salaries and benefits are taken into account.
I am actually talking more locally than “most Americans” and I don’t believe the polls keep up to the “this very minute” attitudes of people. I also didn’t say that all Democrats are turning to support Walker’s proposal right now. There is a definite shift in attitudes. What this means I don’t know. When it will show up in polls, I also don’t know. Is it a purely local thing, I don’t know that either but I doubt it.
Also the union workers are not having their pay and benefits cut 10 - 20 %, on average it’s closer to 5-10% from all the calculations I’ve seen where they remember to credit back the 8 unpaid furlough days they will now not have to take.
But this thread has turned into mostly discussing the senators leaving the state, not whether or not this bill is a bad or good thing, or about who has lost the most income over the last few years.
My point was to mention what I see and hear locally about people’s attitudes about the walk-outs and to give a little background on local people’s attitudes about unions. When the protesters claim they are fighting for all workers and other workers have to scramble for daycare or lose a day of pay because school has been canceled then little by little they get resentful. If school continues to be closed next week even one day there are going to be more people having anti union feelings.
This would be an extremely tidy and efficient solution to the whole mess.
Alright, let me change that to “almost nothing”.
Before I retired the family plan health insurance cost $70 a month. That included myself, my wife, and our 3 kids had they still been living at home. Not $70 each, $70 total. What private employee get’s health insurance for $70 a month for a family of 5? The dental plan was $6 a month. Period. Six bucks for 5 people. And both plans were crazy good. The only co-pays were a $15 doctor office visit, and $10 for a three month supply of any medication prescribed. The dental plan had one $20 deductible, per patient, per year. EVERYTHING else was covered 100% on both plans.
Think an insurance company can do all that for $70 bucks a month for 5 people? Guess who paid the rest? YOU DID! Thanks! 
Oh, and I didn’t have to contribute one cent towards my pension. There was a separate investment plan, but it was not mandatory to participate and it did not affect ones pension either way. My pension was calculated using my 3 highest years income salary which was $63, $68, and $83K. No way would I have made that in the private sector with my level of education.
If this is an accurate statistic to use for this argument; that private Wisconsin workers make 5% more than Wisconsin state workers IN THE SAME JOBS, then it doesn’t look like the union thing is doing them any good.
And I’m not all for the Governor’s plan. I’m really trying to look at both sides. I do think he could take a compromise pill or 12.
A bit like ACORN, isn’t it? Using the power of legislation to weaken and/or destroy one’s political enemies. We know now that the whole ACORN “scandal” was a crock of shit, but it doesn’t matter, ACORN is destroyed. Who is out there doing their work now, registering and empowering the lower class voter? They killed ACORN because ACORN was working, ACORN was effective, ACORN was empowering people who would vote against them, so they killed it. America, fucked yeah!
And on the other side, campaign finance reform has turned to shit before our wondering eyes, either of the Kock Brothers has about a million times more political power than you or I, because they have money to fund the cash-roots movements like the Tea Party. Corporations have a protected voice, unions will be crushed.
How many of you are working harder now to make up for laid off fellow workers? Is your employer paying you extra for your work? Is he promising to make it up to you when things get better? Or is he simply demanding that you sacrifice for the greater good? His greater good.
How many more people might be hired if you didn’t have to put up with that shit? But you need that job, don’t you? You need that health insurance. You got a mortgage, and there’s a good chance you’re “underwater”, one less paycheck in your family and your family is on the street.
What do we need unions for, anyway, when our corporate masters are so generous and patriotic, willing for you to make sacrifices? Its business as usual, they’re giving you the business, as usual.
You know, Captain Amazing, I’ve lived in Wisconsin my entire life, my parents have, my grandparents have, and none of us can think of a single piece of legislation advanced by Democrats in the state of Wisconsin in the past 80 years which can be compared to the destructive power this bill has on the day-to-day lives of huge portion of the citizens of this state. I feel like you’re drawing a false equivalency between the actions of the Democrats and the Republicans in my state, and there is just no parity there.