Weren’t you in law enforcement? One of the unions that isn’t up for gutting? The group of folks who get the best bargaining, the earliest retirements, etc.? And really, if you think that the benefits the public teat provided were too good for you, more than you deserved, you should not have taken them. You could always have paid your own way.
Getting subsidized insurance now through your retirement? Best be prepared for that to be taken away next.
To be ruthlessly fair, the point is valid, under ordinary circumstances, they are indeed obligated to stand there and take it. Yes, that is their job. And the fact that their opposite numbers have not behaved correctly, have used every conceivable resource to screw their political opposition does not change that. The other guys behavior does not, in and of itself, justify yours.
Civil disobedience is not entirely civil, it is still breaking the rules. The only question is whether or not the issue rises to that level, and in this instance, I think it does. IF one political faction can use the power of legislation to screw their political enemies, if they can bend the rules to fit themselves and to ensure a political power they otherwise would not enjoy, then the rules are broken.
The Emperors clothes are stripped away. This isn’t about making sacrifices for the common good, its about the right undercutting the power of the left by legislation. And that ain’t right.
The violence of the labor movement is really, really relevant to Wisconsin’s history. There was the Bay View Massacre in 1886, which was the last time the governor called up the National Guard against workers. That is probably one of the contributing factors to Milwaukee having Socialist mayors in the early 20th century. It’s a shame that Republicans in control of the state now are repudiating Wisconsin’s progressive tradition – a tradition which has put the welfare of its citizens ahead of the welfare of its businesses – in order to give Republicans advantage in the nation. It’s a big fuck you to their constituents here. I don’t believe for a minute that they’re doing this out of consideration of taxpayers, especially when union members are taxpayers too.
Walker sure didn’t! He ran on a platform of bringing 250,000 jobs to the state and reducing state spending. I suppose you could say that this bill is reducing state spending, but there wasn’t a peep out of him about reducing the power of unions during the election. A lot of his campaign seemed to center around how awesome he was for driving a 1998 Saturn instead of flashier car, and he immediately traded that in for a 2011 Yukon XL (which costs nearly $700 per month more in leasing than former Governor Doyle’s car and god knows what in gas money) when he came to office, so I kind of figure he’s not actually all that interested in reducing spending. I’m guessing he doesn’t pack lunch in a brown paper bag anymore, either.
Oh, and the jobs? So far he’s actually pushed forward legislation that would lose jobs, with his proposal to tighten regulations on wind turbines and killing the high-speed rail plan. I guess he doesn’t care about creating jobs anymore than reducing state spending!
That might have been true for you, but it’s definitely not true of all state-funded employees. My mom works at the local public school, and she’s a union representative for the support staff union. The support staff at her school don’t have pensions, but they do get health benefits, and they all pay between 30-40 percent of the cost of insurance, depending on how many hours they work. The co-pays are much higher than yours are, as well. They actually have a pretty good deal, because most of the members of her union in other school districts don’t get benefits at all and many of them only make minimum wage. Contracts for public school employees are negotiated with the school district, not the state, and it’s absolutely wrong for anyone to assume that ALL state-funded employees have health insurance that good. I would wager that the majority of the people this bill will affect definitely do not have health insurance like that, and most of them probably don’t have cushy pensions, either.
My aunt and uncle are also people whose pay is funded by the state, and while I don’t have the details of their insurance plan, it definitely does not look anything like what you’re describing. They just had a baby last year and . . . uh, no. Their insurance did not cover everything.
For quite a few years I did. I was a co-owner in 2 businesses and we had a group plan for employees. This included myself and my business partner.
In full disclosure I will tell you I got a stipend for not being on the departments health plan. But that deal sucked. You got a one time payment of a large amount of money. But the moment you quite, got fired, retired, died, or went on the departments health plan, the money had to be paid back in full. So in reality it was more like a loan. The $$ was taxable too. So when you paid it back you ended up losing money. Many of us (myself included :mad: ) didn’t read the small print when we took the cash. D’oh!:smack:
On top of the job security and benefits I got 12 paid days a year sick leave that could accrue indefinitely, the highest tier of vacation was 6 weeks per year, 12 paid holidays a year (if you had to work on a holiday you could either take the money or take a paid day off at a different time) 2 extra “floating” paid holidays, and an entire week of paid personal days. They also paid for a health club membership and I got paid $10 every time I visited (up to $30 per week).
I also got $480 a year for a uniform maintenance allowance, of which I rarely used more than $150 a year of. I was not required to return the balance. They also paid the full premium for a $250K life insurance policy for me, and a $50K policy for my spouse. I also got tuition reimbursement for myself, and my family.
I never used it all that much but my wife, my daughter, and one of my sons all have degrees that did not cost one dime!
After 25 years I retired with 4160 hours of accrued sick/vacation/holiday and personal leave time. At my final rate of pay that equaled $116,480. I could take the cash or put it into something I think they called a “bondable account” (don’t ask me to explain it. I don’t understand it and had never ever heard this term before). The money in that account can be used to pay the retirement premium for health insurance. At the rate I’m guaranteed at that’s just shy of 65 years of health insurance for both my wife and I. Retirees do not qualify for dental. Also, I have to pay the life insurance premiums now. I put half the money in this account and walked with the remaining. If I live more than 32 years I’ll have to pay the premiums out of pocket at that time. Even at the increased rate for retirees it’s still less than most private employees are paying. My pension is for life with a 15 year survivor benefit. So if I croak before 2022 my wife still gets my checks. If I keel over after that she still get’s the checks for 24 more months.
My overall point is, having been a government employee I have some credibility on this issue and refute the claims that they’re underpaid and that paying a bit towards health care premiums and retirement will be such a hardship. It’s nonsense. For quite a few people government service can be a gravy train that employees in the private sector wouldn’t dare dream of. And it’s almost all at tax payer expense.
I am a state employee, too. And I’ve watch as my job security has diminished and my health insurance coverage has gone to shit. And they have done…things…to my retirement that have made choices I made in the past look really stupid*.
I am a strange cat: I am a union supporter and think unions remain important. However, I hate the union I am forced to belong to and think that collective bargaining for state employees in my state, implemented a few years ago, was a terrible idea that is both fucking up the state budget and state employee’s personal budgets.
Whenever people tell me that we don’t need unions anymore because we have labor laws, I counter with the idea that we don’t need environmental groups, consumer protection agencies, etc, because, y’know we already have laws in place for that stuff…
*but that’s my fault; I let my crazy ex-husband talk me into changing plans and though it worked out well for him, I will probably be dying at my desk…
It’s not just about state government employees, though. People who are employed by public schools do not have pensions and health benefits which resemble yours, and these are people who will be denied the right to collective bargaining along with government employees. This bill has very little to do with addressing budget issues and is all about irreparably disempowering unions and reducing funding to social welfare programs like BadgerCare which help some of the neediest people in our state.
And just because you retired with those benefits, vacation days, etc. does not mean that people who are starting their careers or are in the middle of their careers have them. It’s seriously disingenuous to point out what you were making at the end of your career and compare that across the board to all state employees, because those things aren’t going to hold true for all of them.
ETA: Disempowering unions which have traditionally voted for Democrats, I might point out. This wouldn’t be happening if Walker had been able to cozen those unions into his pocket like he did with the unions which this bill does not address.
I know several teachers and they all have what is described as “Cadillac” health plans. And pay little for them. Yet they were bitching to high heaven to my wife on Thursday about Walkers plan. One even said she was going to quit her job and go on W2 and Badger Care just to show him. The sense of entitlement some people have is disgusting.
I know lots of teachers, too. An entire school district of them and then people I’m related to or friends with, so probably on the order of 75 to 80 people. They do not have Cadillac health plans. Those things are decided on a school district by school district basis, and a bill which radically reconfigures the way those things are worked out will do nothing to effectively address that issue. It will only screw over the people who don’t have super cushy health plans, and that is a lot of them.
I live in Verona, WI. As a constituent that has one of the fourteen senators currently in Illinois, I say bravo. His job isn’t to represent the Govenor because he was voted in- his job is to represent his district. I voted for him, and I give him two enthusiastic thumbs up for his decision to stop a vote for a bill where no negotiation was allowed.
I am not a union employee, but I am the daughter of two union employees that worked their asses off to send me to the UW so I could get the education I needed to succeed. I went down to the protests yesterday, and I will continue to go. The vast majority of protesters have no problem tightening their belts, in fact they agreed to $100 million in concessions before their contracts negotiations were rejected. This protest is about the attack on collective bargaining. If one doesn’t agree with the right to collectively bargain, then that’s their right, but let’s not confuse what this protest is about.
Airman Doors how about kicking in for YOUR health insurance? And YOUR retirement, 20 and out, too cushy. We can’t afford it. The Koch brothers need another tax cut!
Well golly Mr. Wizard (or Mrs. Wizard as the case may be). You sure do know eeeeeeeeverything about this. We should probably just go ahead and accept your opinions as fact given the vast weight those opinions have. We should probably just call them data instead of anecdotes too…and start genuflecting to your posts. Should we build a full body statue in your honor, or would your expertness prefer a just a bust? Be sure to let us know what material best captures your majesty. I’d simply hate for the tribute to capture anything less than your full grandeur. I mean that no manmade material can capture the full awesomeness of yourself, but I’d just like to do the best I can. A person with such a wealth of experience and expertise deserves only the very best that humanity has to offer.
Also, I can lay it on thicker if you thought that was too subtle.
So Pkbites;
Essentially you’re saying you got yours and didn’t really deserve it and now no one else can get theirs not matter how modest theirs is in comparison to yours? What are you willing to give back?
Oops, Dio, I did a little searching and found your foot in your mouth. From here, you moan and wail about the Republicans being purely obstructionist on health care reform:
And in this thread you are totally OK with the Democrats being obstructionist on this Wisconsin cost-cutting bill.
How’s your own ass taste, Dio?
So, what if the democrats do this on every single bill they don’t like? ?
*Concealed Carry
*Constitutional carry
*Repealing the race reporting requirement for police
*Repealing the smoking ban
*Repealing the hospital tax
*Etc.
These are all controversial issues that may come up this session.
Last November the Democrats were completely neutered. They lost the Governorship, the State Senate, and the State Assembly. They even lost their leadership as key, long term Democrats were tossed out of office. Rather than just take their lumps, lick their wounds, retool, and try to take the 2 branches of the legislature back in '12 and the Governors mansion back in '14, they are resorting to subverting the entire democratic process.
Cowards!
Preventing a quorum is part of the democratic process. It is quite rare and used to stop drastic policy from being passed without proper negotiation, among other things. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make repeating it any more true.
Can we not try to magically divine what Senate Democrats may or may not do in the future with legislation that has nothing to do with a budget repair bill that includes language that would unravel a foundation of Wisconsin’s labor history and effectively neuter the right to collectively bargain? I think the filibuster is an important part of the democratic process, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s acceptable to use it excessively to subvert democracy, nor would I find it acceptable to prevent a quorum on any and all legislation any particular party disagreed with. I trust you are equally disgusted with Congressional Republicans for their endless use of the filibuster. “Cowards”, I think, was the word you used.
The filibuster is an established rule in the United States Senate. Show me where leaving the state and hiding in an Illinois dump motel is part of the parliamentary procedure rules established for the Wisconsin State Senate.
And you haven’t answered my question. What would you do/say if the Democrats do this over every bill? Saying it won’t happen is not an answer. I’m asking what you will do/say if it does.
Well, sure he is, but if he was down here ranting and raving every time the Pubbies pulled some lame-ass obstructionist bullshit, he’d have no time for ballroom dancing. Or anything else, for that matter.
A “dump motel”? What, you only check in to take a shit?
What else is there to do in north FIBland?