Great Anime

In My Humble Opinion
1

I often hear how Americans lack of respect for cartoons prevents great anime from taking off here in the states. In fact in this thread Mekhazzio is lamenting the lack of respect for anime.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=85393

Well what examples are there of great anime? The only two really great examples that I’ve seen would include Akira and Princess Mononoke. I’ve also heard some pretty good things about Serial Experiment Lain. The vast majority of anime doesn’t seem to be all that great to me.

I’m not bashing anime mind you. I’ve got a decent collection on DVD and my current favorite series is Cowboy Bebop and Princess Mononoke is my favorite anime film. Now a lot of anime that makes its way to the states is sometimes downright bad. Either because of bad translations, editing, or maybe they weren’t all that great in the first place.

Do a lot of Americans not have respect for anime because they don’t see many good examples? What great anime are we all missing?

Marc

2

Let me be the first to say, try Ghost in the shell. Simply great. Personally, I liked it a lot better than Princess Mononoke. Also, a personal favorite of mine is Demon City Shinjuku, which is simply good entertainment unlike Ghost which is thought provoking. Also, much Anime suffers from poor translation, and is often cut to get a PG rating, which can make it hard to understand. Demon City BTW, is best in the dubbed version, and I ordinarily don’t mind subtitles. (I plan on wathing Akira Kurasaka’s Seven Samurai tonight. :slight_smile: )

3

I had a hell of a lot of fun watching through Irresponsible Captain Tylor recently (all 26 episodes). I’m also a fairly big Ranma 1/2 fan.

As far as sheer quality, I think Wings of Honnemise gets overlooked a lot. It’s one of the few anime (along with Ghost in the Shell) that I recommend to non-anime fans.

4

Cowboy Bebop is one of my favorites as well. I saw the series for the first time on Tooniverse’s late night showcase, and now have two of the DVDs. Ugh… still can’t decide how I feel about the final episode. Knocking on Heaven’s Door (the CB movie) is supposed to open in Korea in November, I think.

Another great series that I first saw on Tooniverse is Kareshi Kanojo (Korean title Ku Namja Ku Yeoja; no English title that I know of). It’s a high school romantic comedy from Studio Gainax. This series has some of the most imaginative sequences that I’ve ever seen in a cartoon; animation is used to tell a story in ways which no other medium could. Unfortunately, I doubt that this series will be translated into English, since most of the anime which is imported into North America tends to be sci-fi action-adventure stuff aimed at teenage boys.

A good scifi show which is avaliable in English is Irresponsible Captain Tyler. I absolutely love this show… it’s a comedy about Tyler, the ultimate slacker, who is somehow assigned command of a battleship and then goes on to save the universe in Inspector Clouseau fashion. It’s very very funny, the coolest person on the ship is from Korea :), and you should really watch it if you’re at all into this sort of thing.

I will also reccomend the other Studio Ghilbi films- they’re the ones who made Princess Mononoke. My favorite among them is either Kiki’s Delivery Service or Porco Rosso. Other movies directed by Hayao Miyazaki include Totoro, Nausicaa, Laputa, and Castle Cagliostro. If you get the chance, all of these movies are well worth watching.

It wasn’t directed by Miyazaki, but Grave of the Fireflies is another great film from Studio Ghilbi. It’s the story of two children who become orphaned near the end of WWII, and follows their tragic lives until they die, forgotten and unmourned. It’s not a happy movie. If you are interested in anime as art, you really ought to see this film. Try watching it back to back with When the Wind Blows.

I ought to mention that I’m a mecha junkie, so take any reccomendations from me regarding mecha anime with a grain of salt. I love Battle Angel… megaviolent, icy cold cyberpunk. The scene where Ido discovers Chiren’s body always sends chills down my spine, even though I’ve seen it more times than I care to count. The battle scenes in Bubblegum Crisis are truly lovely to behold, as are the giant robot sword fights in Escaflowne. Macross Plus combined computer graphics with cel animation to produce the incredible city battle sequences. Each of these movies also have great soundtracks. Patlabor is a bit like Law & Order meets Gundam Wing. ARIEL Visual is a spot-on parody of the Super Robot shows of yore; I used to be the only person I know who actually got the jokes. Now I’m engaged to another one. I don’t know if that’s good or bad.

Is this post too long yet? Probably. I’ve rambled on enough. It’s three in the morning and I need sleep. Good night.

5

Can someone please explain the appeal of anime and Japanese animation to me??! I can not figure out why it is so big(Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon, etc.). It seems to me like it is everywhere these days. I cannot see how so many people could possibly like it. All of it, the huge eyes, tiny mouths, ditzy charcters, school girl outfits, Mech- Warrior type flying suits …WTF?? :: sigh ::
I just don’t understand…

6

With the best anime, the animated nature of it is transparent–it would make zero difference if it was animated or live-action (although with some, the cost of FX for live-action would be prohibitive. Less so in an increasingly CGI effects age).

I will second Grave of the Fireflies–I don’t think of it as good “anime”, it’s simply powerful drama, period.

Perfect Blue was a psychological-suspense-thriller that had no compelling reason to be anime at all. (I believe Darren Arrenofsky of Pi and Requiem for a Dream fame is making a live-action version, in fact. He also stole/homaged a brief sequence from it for the latter of his films.)

Likewise with Cowboy Bebop–with a decent fx budget and crew and actors, it’d be just as good; its strength is the pacing, the quality of the writing, etc., not that it’s animated.

Now, I like Macross Plus, but wouldn’t call it “great” by any means; it’s eye candy. My opinion of Ghost in the Shell and Akira is quite similar–they’re beautifully drawn and animated, but the stories just aren’t all that compellingly done; there were nuggets of interesting ideas in both, and the execution wasn’t horrible by any means, just not in “great” territory.

7

Well I am not a great fan of anime. But I have seen two that were memorable and that the American public would do much better to see than the latest brainless CGI-o-rama. One is what MGibson originally mentioned, Princess Mononoke*. It is a beautiful movie, and the human characters balanced and layered. The other is Galaxy Express 999. A bizarre and frequently preposterous story, but has lots of neat images and some really touching moments.

8

What I think anime has going for it is a visually sophisticated look. But for the majority of the American public, something is being lost in the translation as far as storytelling goes.

The DVD release of Akira cleaned up the dialogue considerably, and it makes a bit more sense, without altering the point of the story.

The Japanese are thinking on a whole 'nother level, compared to the average American tale.

But my personal fave is Dominion: Tank Police. Gotta love the whole concept.

9

Well, different people have different tastes. Perhaps Japanese cartoons just aren’t your cup of tea. Maybe you haven’t been introduced to a series which appeals to you.

If you are a fan of animation in general, I’d advise you not to give up on the Japanese just yet. That country produces a sizable percentage of the world’s cartoons. Many of them are quite good. If you are not a fan of animation, then I can’t think of a reason why you’d like Japanese cartoons better than any other ones.

I have to disagree with this. Animation is a different medium than live action film, and a good director can capitalize upon its strengths and possibilities. A live action version of an anime series might be no better and no worse than the animated version, but it would most certainly be different.

Grave of the Fireflies and Cowboy Bebop are two examples of anime that could, quite easily, have been filmed in live action. Both of these films feature realistic character design and naturalistic direction.

Kareshi Kanojo is an example of anime which would be very difficult to translate to live action. In any given episode, character design will change according to the mood of the scene. Direction of the series is not naturalistic; various imaginative methods are used to tell the story, often without depicting the characters at all. For example, in one scene two girls are talking about a boy. The visual for this scene is a page from a diary. Scribbles are added to the page as their conversation continues.

10

My personal fave, in addition to others listed here, is Project A-Ko. The first one that is, the sequels were disappointingly average. It is especially fun because it parodies other anime as well as superhero comics.

11

For those who have never seen it, Berserk is a great series. I must warn you though that the first episode is nothing like the rest. The entire series has good character development and an involving story.

Other good anime series not mentioned in previous posts are Outlaw Star (similar to Cowboy Bebop, yet it follows a plotline from episode to episode), Trigun (starts out comedic, but takes on a more serious tone the farther the series progresses), and His and Her Circumstances (a story about two kids in high school, surprisingly very funny).

As to the side thread as to why I like anime, it’s kind of hard to not like it. Different anime series run the gamut of every type of show, in every type of setting. I believe there’s a piece of anime out there for everyone. The problem is getting ahold of it. Most of the supposed anime the U.S. is exposed to is rather sub-par. Judging all of anime off of Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z is like judging all of American tv off of Full House and Miami Vice.

12

Discussed before in:
Really good Anime?
Favorite Anime?

My favourite series are Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and Outlaw Star. There are quite a few other series that that I really like, but those are my top ones.
As far as movies goes, there’s way to many to start naming. Some great ones are Ninja Scroll, Akira, Princess Mononoke, Barefoot Gen, X, Grave of Fireflies, Vampire Hunter D, and the bloody but classic Fist of the Northstar.

I think a big reason that Americans might not have that much respect for Anime is because they just don’t have that much access to it or have seen that much of it. There are lots and lots of really great Anime (as evidenced in the other threads and this one), but the majority of them aren’t in the mass culture. And many of those that are (ie. Dragon Ball Z) have been changed drastically. Also, most of those that make it onto television are those with only very mainstream appeal.

I could not see Cowboy Bebop being anywhere near as good live, actually. A large part of the reason it’s so great is its style; it is filled to the brim with style. And even if you don’t notice it immediately, that style is due, in large part to the animation. The show has the look of a 70’s cop show, mixed with the slickness of a high budget space flick, mixed with so many other elements. Animation is one of the few mediums that can mix all of these things into one, cohesive universe. You really believe that everything coexists together. I can’t see it being pulled off live without looking either extremely cheesy or too dark (and less fun). It could also just seem really scattered.

Plus, this was a much cheaper way for the creators to make the series. How could a live-action show like that, were it not an Anime before, get made? IMHO, it’s pretty out-there, idea-wise, and not necessarily a safe-bet; it’d be really expensive to make. I don’t think too many television stations that could afford it would be willing to take a risk and put up the money it would take to make as good of a live-action version (if it were possible) without there being an Anime, first.

13

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Although I enjoyed Vampire Hunter D and Ninja Scroll I wouldn’t call them great movies.

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Maybe something is a great anime but isn’t really all that great when compared to other motion pictures? As I said I thought the two I mentioned above were examples of great anime but I wouldn’t include them in my list of great movies. Only a handful of anime flicks that I’ve seen even have a chance. Off the top of my head I can only think of Akira, Princess Mononoke, and maybe Ghost in the Shell.

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You’ve got a valid point. I think the animated Superman and Batman adventures put out by Warner Brothers were better then any of the movies. Some things are just better animated.

Marc

14

Okay, the first thing you have to understand about anime is that it’s a wide, wide medium which has all kinds of programming. (Go watch a few episodes of Samurai Pizza Cats if you think that an anime program can’t ever be “cartoony”.) All genres, all tastes, all age groups. In terms of age appropriateness, there are more levels than in America (where it’s pretty much either “kid”, “older kid,” or “pornographic”); you have your kiddie shows, your mainstream harmless comedies…like Samurai Pizza Cats…your teen-oriented comedy/dramas (there are a lot of these; Kimagure Orange Road and Ranma 1/2 are two of the better known ones), your “adult-themed” soap opera serials, etc. So when someone decries the lack of appeal of “anime”, it’s really just certain types of anime, which, BTW, usually are niche markets in most other media.

Now, I think the reason “great” films (haven’t seen any of them, so don’t know for sure) like Akira and Grave of the Fireflies don’t gain mainstream acceptance is that they’re great, but not necessarily entertaining to most Americans. There’s a reason they don’t show great movies like The Godfather or Platoon on Saturday morning, you know. Furthermore, the subject matter of these movies doesn’t have broad appeal, which, more than anything else, decides how well accepted ANY import is stateside. Pokemon has cute monsters, daft kids that real-life kids can relate too, funny situations, an easy-to-follow storyline…and of course, lots of merchandising tie-ins (including the game this cartoon is based on). Is it any wonder that it’s garnered more mainstream success than some more lauded anime works?

I mean, I’ve seen plenty of graphic, disturbing, thought-provoking anime movies that I loved, but I’m not surprised at all that they’re a limited market.

15

I love the setting of ‘Kiki’s Delivery Service’…it’s hard to describe, but there’s something about it that I love. I’ve watched that movie several times and dig it’s atmosphere.

16

I have to recommend “Neon Genesis Evangeleon”. This series starts out as an average “fourteen-year-olds save the world in giant robots” series, but then escalates into a jaw-dropping psychological and sociological examination. As I watched this series, I could not believe that this was originally a television show. It’s just too good!

I also have enjoyed “Cowboy Bebop”. I’ve only seen the first three DVD’s so far, but this is a very engaging story with wonderful, wonderful music.

My usual favorite genre is the teenage comedy shows–“Ranma 1/2”, “Urusei Yatsura”, “Tenchi Muyo”, etc. These are funny, they have a certain sexual-tension element that is missing from American animation, and they generally tell a continuous story! They are a bit like American sitcoms without that constant, annoying “reset button” at the end of every show.

If there’s one thing that anime could teach American television, it’s that animation and continuous stories work in many genres.

I think that the animation in these shows actually works to make a fanciful world seem more realistic and possible. Animation is used this way in “The Simpsons” as well. If “The Simpsons” were a live-action sitcom, would we be so familiar with the city of Springfield and its many eccentric citizens? Of course not. To build so many sets and hire so many actors would be cost-prohibitive! We’d see the Simpson family, their house, and perhaps the Flanderses if we were lucky. It would be a very different series.

IMO, many Americans don’t have good respect for anime because they see animation as a medium for children (and, perhaps, comedy). People who watch animation as adults are seen as people who haven’t grown up yet. Notice that children’s anime has been fairly widely accepted by mainstream America.

There will be a wide gulf to cross in order to get an animated drama onto American broadcast TV, though. TV execs are not known for taking chances in this day and age. Even if they did decide to take a chance on the genre, a quality anime that’s been poorly dubbed, cut, and sanitized (and, shudder possibly “Americanized”) for broadcast TV will probably suck and not do very well. Perhaps children do not know the difference, but I bet that a lot of adults do, especially those adults who would be more open to anime in the first place.

17

I must vehemently disagree with the common opinions of Grave of the Fireflies. It is a completely despicable, evil, manipulative propaganda film, it is a piece of ultra-nationalist right-wing trash masquerading as an anti-war film. The problem is that you are viewing it through Western eyes.
Perhaps I can explain this best through a related anecdote, from John Dower’s “War Without Mercy.” He describes how the Allied psywar division created horrific propaganda films for the Japanese, showing mutilated corpses, piles of dead bodies, Japanese soldiers slaughtered in battle, etc. Then they dropped these films by parachute, en masse, over Japan. The Japanese snatched them up and ran them in theaters unedited, they were hugely popular and people lined up to see them. The psywar people miscalculated, what the Western mind saw as senseless death that would cause a sense of defeatism, the Japanese saw as the ultimate fulfillment of a glorious destiny to give one’s life for the Emperor.
Fireflies is a similar tale. Its role is to transmit the tales of the glorious sacrifices of the war generation to the new generation. It tells how even the Japanese children would not bow down to oppression at the hands of the evil Allies, even at the cost of their lives. They would break rather than bend. The children die a noble death “like a shattered jewel” (this was a common Japanese propaganda slogan near the war’s end). This film makes me want to puke.

18

I think these are both really good points, DKW. I don’t really have anything to add, I just thought they could stand to be singled out.

MGibson, I really don’t think you can call Animes great by comparing them to Hollywood feature films. IMHO, they’re simply not the same thing and can’t be compared. To use a really old cliche, it’s like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, they’re both in the medium of film, but their method of story-telling is completely different.

For example, I really like the African film Yeelen. However, it’s mode of narrative is completely different from any popular Hollywood movie. And for a very good reason: it’s from a different culture. A different culture with different narrative and idealogical cues. Thus, I wouldn’t say it’s great by comparing it to American films; I’d say it’s a great example of an African film which uses traditional elements of African storytelling.

For the same reason, I wouldn’t compare Anime’s to Hollywood films. That’s a possible reason why the Anime’s you listed as really great Anime’s have gotten wide-mainstream-success in America, though: because they’re similar in story-telling style to Hollywood films.
Now, that’s not a bad thing, one way or the other. Both Hollywood films and Anime are great in their own ways. But still, they’re very different.

19

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I wouldn’t say anime tells their stories in a completely different way. Granted there are cultural difference that can sometimes be difficult to understand. You see the same conflicts in their movies that you see in ours. Man vs. man, man vs. nature, man vs. self, and of course man vs. tenticle horror preying on young women.

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Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Tokyo Drifter, Life is Beautiful, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, and Seven Samurai are all foreign films with foreign ideas that are considered to be excellent movies here in the states. Of course I’ve heard that Akira Kurosawa is often thought of as one of the more western style directors from Japan.

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Well to me a good or great film is a good or great film no matter where it comes from.

I suppose that’s possible. Of the movies mentioned so far the most popular seem to be Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Princess Mononoke. I’d include Grave of the Fireflies but I’ve yet to meet anyone other then a hardcore anime fan who has seen it.

I’m not saying anime is bad or anything. Like I said there are several that I really enjoy. But I’m hard pressed to classify all but a handful as great. It could be that we don’t get great anime because there really isn’t that much.

Marc

20

If you can hold off on that puking for a bit, I’d like to hear a bit more about your interpretation of the film. This is the first time I’ve heard this opinion of the movie, and would like to have a few more details.

It seems to me that certain aspects of the script don’t support this interpretation well. The Americans are mentioned only a few times, and the bombing at the beginning is the only direct contact we have with them. The opression suffered by the children all comes from other Japanese people, such as the aunt who took their rice and the man who beat Seita for stealing a potato. The “shattered jewel” line came shortly after Setsuko’s death- she had eaten some broken glass marbles, thinking them to be candy. I took the line to be an ironic reference to her cause of death, although I was previously unaware of its use as a propaganda slogan.

An English translation of the script is avaliable here, for those who may be interested. I also found a review by Roger Ebert which is typical of the interpretations of this movie I’ve heard up to now.