Great US Composers Not Black or Jewish?

Great Debates
21

Ned Rorem…if you like that type of Art Song. There are many non black/Jewish composers. I figure that you only want to hear about the white ones. Samuel Barber was mentioned previously. Go to The Larrouse Encyclopedia of Music and check out the America section in the very back. Most of the better known composers have been mentioned already at least for classical music. Of them, Samuel Barber is the most respected.

HUGS!
SC

“People’s Poet don’t die, we’ll kill ourselves if you do, but first we’ll take off all our clothes.” The Young Ones

22

If I sounded defensive (I don’t THINK I did, but I’m hardly impartial), I didn’t mean to be.

No question about it, virtually ALL of the popular music genres of the 20th century (blues, jazz, rock and roll, soul, gospel, rap) are, essentially, black music. And, for a race that has never been more than about 3% of the U.S. population, Jews make up a HUGELY disproportionate number of the top songwriters and composers- in classical and theatrical music, especially.

Even the white, Gentile composers I mentioned were HUGELY influenced by black or Jewish musicians (there’d have been no Buddy Holly, Bruce Springsteen, J.C. Fogarty, etc., without Chuck Berry).

23

Umm, did you just refer to Judaism as a “race?” Surely I MUST have misread that.

24

Flora, until we got hypersensitive on the term due to Hitlerism and civil rights, “race” could mean “ethnic group” as well as “group with biological distinctness.” (Remembering a black character in a book I once read who referred to whites as “suffering from a melanin deficiency.”)

I think the term can still validly be used, carefully, in both senses, so long as you realize that you are speaking ethnologically or physical-anthropologically and avoid carrying the usage over into social usage where it becomes stereotyping.

25

“Kawlinga-- Are you sure Zappa’s not Jewish? His mixed-ethnicity doesn’t preclude it.”

That’s Kawliga, pal.

I looked it up in Zappa’s autobiography. He is pretty specific about his background- primarily Sicilian with some Greek and Arab in the mix. Where did you get the idea that he was Jewish?

26

Kawliga – I guessed Frank Zappa was Jewish by playing the stereotype odds:

quirkiness + swarthiness + erudition = Jewish

And not to start a debate on whether one can “look Jewish” or not – some do, some don’t, most are in between – but the man looks Jewish. Of course, I could be totally wrong. [Note that Zappa was the only one in any of the preceeding lists whose background I guessed, lest anyone think I stereotyped my way through the whole thing.]

A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug

27

There is one name I omitted from my past post, and, as a Hooiser, it is unforgivable:
Hoagy Carmichael

28

What? No Albert Hay Malotte?

Tom Berenger: “You’re not a good guy at all!”
Patrick Wayne: “I’m a LAWYER, you idiot!!”

29

When I posted earlier, I only thought about classical composers. If you go into the folk genre almost every composer is non-black and non-Jewish. Even though I listen to folk music quite often (and like it), I don’t consider it worthy of the label “composed”. It is way too simplistic. It is like calling a five year old’s diary a novel. It is the classical musician snootiness I suppose. I don’t consider most rock, pop, rap, etc… worthy of being called “composed” either.

SC

“People’s Poet don’t die, we’ll kill ourselves if you do, but first we’ll take off all our clothes.” The Young Ones

30

So to the very good question, “Are there any great 20th century American composers not Black or Jewish?” I’d like to propose a third interesting filter. Across the same entire spectrum of American composers and genres, including Jewish and African-American musicians as wrll as others, and classical, jazz, rock and pop forms, a large and lovable cross-fraction were also gay—

Cage, Tredici, Rorem, Carlos, Copland, Bernstein, Oliveros, Sondheim, Blitzstein, Menotti, Harrison, Nyro, Reed, Etheridge, Ashman, Thompson, Cowell and Heggie—and easily another dozen beloved American composers and song writers—were gay.

I often imagine if more Americans knew so many of their fave songs and large works from Hollywood. Broadway, Motown, Tin-Pan Alley and Symphony halls everywhere were created by Queer hearts and souls, a lot of voters would trade their blood-colored hate for a blue-sky ending. “Adagio for Strings,” “West Side Story,” “Appalachian Spring” and “I left My Heart in San Francisco“ were definitely not Anita Bryant’s or Pat Robertson’s theme songs. And they are just the tip of a gorgeous, lavender iceberg of All-American Music.

Jews
Irving Berlin
George Gershwin
Aaron Copland
Jerome Kern
Richard Rogers (+Hart +Hammerstein)
Frank Loesser
Leonard Bernstein
Stephen Sondheim
Phillip Glass
Bob Dylan
Paul Simon
Randy Newman
Beastie Boys

Blacks
Scott Joplin
Duke Ellington
Thelonius Monk
Miles Davis
Smokey Robinson
Holland/Dozier/Holland
Prince
Marvin Gaye
Every Great Hip-Hop Artist

Not Jewish, Not Black
Cole Porter – the exception?
John Phillip Sousa
Bruce Springsteen

There are so many blacks and Jews I missed and so many others I didn’t it’s not funny–I’m sure you’ll all fill in the blanks. But my point is basically that American music would suck without blacks and Jews. Comments?
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31

Brian Wilson is the greatest American composer of modern history, and he’s not black or Jewish.

32

As Fran Liebowitz said, in various iterations over the years,
“Setting aside the creative work of Blacks, gays and Jews in American culture leaves you holding the finest Florida orange juice commercials ever made.”

33

It’s a bullshit, arrogant statement meant to denigrate people based on circumstances totally beyond their control.

34

Stan Getz?
Dave Brubeck?

35

Stan Getz was Jewish. Dave Brubeck wasn’t, despite many people probably assuming that he was. At any rate this is a pointless exercise.

I could rattle off gifted non-Jewish, non-Black, non-gay composers all day and someone would still say “well, they were building on the work of Jewish, Black, and gay composers.” Maybe it’s true. But those people were, themselves, building on the work of non-Jewish, non-Black and non-gay composers. That’s just how life is, people are influenced by other people. There’s no point trying to quantify it by ethnicity or some other personal characteristic like sexuality.

36

Jewish.

37

Charles Ives
Dave Brubeck
Neal Hefti
Meredith Willson
Henry Mancini
John Williams
Harry Nilsson
John Philip Sousa
David Van Tieghem
Arto Lindsay
Carl Stalling
Deems Taylor
Virgil Thomson
Paul Williams
John Corigliano
Leroy Anderson

Pretty certain none of these people are/were Jewish or Black.

And I just noticed this is a 20+ year old zombie.

38

:dubious:

Might as well throw in at least some of The Ramones and Tom Petty.

39

George Romero?

40

Zombie or not, is there something to the idea that great creative originality is more likely to come from those who self-perceive as outside of the mainstream culture than those who are of it? ISTM that those of the mainstream culture will be just a bit more likely to beautifully color inside the lines (and rewarded for it), and self-perceived outsiders a bit more willing not only scribble in different directions but understanding that staying in the lines won’t work as well for them …? A bit more likely to take chances creatively, failing often but swinging for the fence?