Gun Grabbers

The BBQ Pit
421

They aren’t allowed to draw, handle or fire their firearms on the streets, they can on a range. We’re talking about idiots, not criminals. And with more training at an earlier age, it might improve the situation.

My friend’s kids are starting to drive and it terrifies me but I know there is a licensing process that tries to ensure some minimal level of competency on the roads. It wouldn’t really botgher me if we did the same thing with guns.

License and register guns, make gun licensing an elective class in high school like driver’s ed. I bet it improves gun safety… but much like the conservative objection to sex ed being taught ins chools, the left objects to gun safety being taught in schools.

There is a difference between taking what isn’t yours and protecting what is.

Can you be a little clearer? You say that I should “man up” and be responsible for any weapons registered to me. I should secure my weapons but if something happens its still my problem. You also say that if someone steals it from me, I’m still not liable as long as I report it (and they break in to steal my weapon:confused:).

It seems clear to me that you would absolve me of responsibility if a thief broke into a locked gun safe and stole my gun as long as I reported the theft in a timely manner (right?). Does the thief have to be trespassing or can some low life acquaintence of mine swipe the gun while my back is turned? What if I don’t figure out he swiped the gun for a long time and in the meanwhile he’s been killing up the palce with the gun?

So let me give you a couple of other examples:

(A) I keep a loaded gun in my nightstand drawer. A thief comes in and comes across it as he looks for valuables, then shoots somebody with it the next day.

(B) I keep a loaded gun in my nightstand drawer. My wife gets pissed off at the plumber who is trying to overcharge her for uncloggint the toiler so she gets my guns and shoots him.

(C) I keep a loaded gun in a locked gun case. Some kids are playing in the house and they manage to open it and shoot themselves.

I take it you would hold me responsible if the kids found the loaded gun in my nightstand drawer and shot each other. We have laws requiring parents to secure their guns if they have children, I’m not sure how to deal with kids in a house that doesn’t usually have children but it seems like you have absolute certainty.

There are ~700 accidental gun deaths every year http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

The VPC puts the number of jsutifable homicides for 2010 at 230 based on cases reported to the FBI (bnote, not all states report cases of justiable homicide to the FBI.

How many defensive gun uses do you think there are every year? How many of those prevented a murder?

Its always been pretty difficult to argue for gun control based on accidental gun deaths. You really have to rely on how eliminating guns might affect criminal homicides.

So I guess what I’m saying is I’ll take those odds.

It depends on what you mean by “secure it”

In the case of the criminal stealing your gun, there is an intervening criminal act.

Its a criminal act. We don’t generally ascribe liability when there is an intervening criminal act.

If you’re going to assume negligence then we already have a structure in place. Its called the tort system. But, it sounds like you want some extra punishment (with taking away the constitutional right to keep and bear arms being at the top of the list).

You are talking about committing crimes. You are not allowed to possess an unregistered gun in almost every place that requires registration.

If your point is that criminals are able to get around gun laws then you are one step closer to seeing things from my perspective.

For a criminal, buying a gun “on the street” is not a great barrier. it only really constucts barriers for the law abiding.

Yes, this is what I mean.

A lot of it is faulty slippery slope paranoia, they call it incrementalism but its really just buying into the notion that you can’t give the crazies any of what they want even if they want because that will make it easier for the gun grabbers to confiscate all your guns. I never understood that argument. If we have the power to stop good ideas that we kinds sorta agree with, I think we certainly have the power to stop the stupid ones.

I’m not talking about people who started pointing guns at other people, mostly I’m talking about people who stepped behind the yellow line with a loaded gun or who unpacked their guns behind the yellow line. But sure, there are some folks who seem way too casual around guns, exercise poor finger discipline etc. But, there are definitely people that I think should take a gun safety class, I doubt any of my fellow gun nuts don’t agree with that but I don’t think they are any more dangerous than a driver with dangerous driving habits.

If we handed out tickets that would make these guys take a gun safety class, I guess I would be OK with that.

This last one hardly seemed to have any effect on gun sales around here. The sense seems to be that the gun grabbers blew all dry powder and have no credibility or political capital left. The guys at the gun shop were joking about how they should send some money to Feinstein.

As did I but the Florida laws are fucked up in a lot of ways.

422

Broad strokes that you can nit pick to death if you’d like or debate if you want. I came up with this after being educated on the Boards by responsible gun owners that find fault with a one sized fits all approach to keeping guns in the home safe. “Trigger locks have this issue, gun cabinets have that issue, ad nauseum”

a) Thief comes in and steals your piece. You don’t report it in a timely manner, you’re liable. What that timely manner is, I dunno, you tell me. 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, 1 month, 1 year? What’s a reasonable time for discovery, again I don’t know. But if your home has a break in, I would assume you’d check if your piece is still there right away. You might be on a biz trip, or out getting drunk, or something, but there should be some sort of “reasonable” standard. You report it that night to the police you’ve had a break in and your weapon is missing, then yes you are no longer responsible for it. Same way as if you sell your piece and it is legally registered to someone else, then you’re not responsible if they subsequently go and commit a crime with it.

b) That’s a tough one. Maybe you need “heat of the moment” insurance for such as case to cover the civil liability. I’m guessing that gun insurance would probably drive more safety. Seems like a gun owner probably should not have criminal charges if an adult member of your immediate family takes the gun and does something illegal.

c) Then it wasn’t secured safely now was it? (Excepting a ludicrious scenario that the 3 year old is actually a guiness book of world records safe cracker and a serial killer preying on toddlers. :slight_smile: )

Big story in the NY Timessunday on the ***likely ***under reporting of accidental gun deaths of children. It claims: In all, fewer than 20 states have enacted laws to hold adults criminally liable if they fail to store guns safely, enabling children to access them.

I don’t have all the answers, but you own a piece, you own securing it. And if your own “best efforts” fall short, then the tough shit rule applies and you face criminal and civil charges. This way gubmit gets out of the business of telling your how to secure your weapon, gets out of the way of trying to enforce it, and gives you the personal responsibility to take it seriously. Possibly add in a dash of private insurance for the civil part, and let the efficient free market help make the US of A a safer place

423

Our Supreme Court has considered the issue and decided that the prefatory clause does not limit the operative clause. So it is not inappropriate to cite the operative clause without citing the prefatory clause.

What makes you think the highwaymen are going to use smooth bore muskets?

The craziest preppers I have ever seen have been on the show doomsday preppers and they spend a lot more time and effort on food and water preparation than guns (buying and becoming proficient with guns is really easy, its part of what makes guns so dangerous).

The second to last link doesn’t seem to work. Also, can you post a few of these every day?

I don’t know about bullshit but I’d rather have a gun and take it to the range for a couple of hours once or twice a month than devote my life to martial arts. If I was inclined to work out anyway, some sort of martial arts program might not be a horrible idea but if I felt my life was in danger I’m much more likely to run, give up my wallet or pull a gun (probably in that order) than try to karate chop my way out of the situation.

Well, thats what we mean by criminal liability.

As in criminally negligent homicide or a fine and a specified number of days in jail regardless of how many people get killed?

Most states already have tort laws that cover that sort of situation. In many cases there are specific criminal penalties for this sort of situation. But we never impute the crime of the person who fires the gun onto the person who owned the gun.

Yeah, we already have those sort of laws. A lot depends on how you define negligence.

Zeriel is the only one I am aware of on this board that purports to be a gun owner and wants to impose liability on gun owners for crimes committed with their guns. His version of gun laibility is not what you said earlier. Zeriel wants strict liability so that the crimes committed with your gun are imputed to you. He once proposed that a boyfriend that accidentally shot his girlfriend should be subjected to the death penalty in some states.

So if someone steals my gun and kills someone, am I responsible for that murder in any way shape or form or am I just liable for failure to properly store a weapon.

424

OK, these are kind of interesting. We need Bricker or another lawyer type to chime in.

IIRC the NRA says you should not store loaded guns, and guns should be locked securely away. It’s possible you could be liable (negligent) if you didn’t keep your gun stored properly, no? Although this could be mitigated by immediately reporting the theft.

IANAL, but I wonder if there wouldn’t be some sort of ‘assumed consent’ involved with a spouse or other adult allowed in the house if they use the gun without your consent. Although again, if this was a ‘heat of the moment’ shooting, perhaps you could still be somewhat liable for improperly storing a gun.

Then it wasn’t properly stored. You’re responsible.

Guns are supposed to be stored securely. Doesn’t matter if you didn’t ‘expect’ kids over. I’d say you’re responsible.

Well, you could also possibly include up to 250 a year dying from firearms, undetermined intent (see next page). Plus, the number has risen from 550 in 2009 to over 800 in 2011. Perhaps one side effect of ‘Obama being a great gun salesman’, as Kable insists.

Your point is that, well, there was only 230 DGU deaths, but there could have been a lot more DGUs that didn’t result in someone dying but still saved a life, right? OK - in that case, I’d respond, how many accidental discharge of firearms didn’t result in someone’s death but only injured someone? How often did the accidental gun discharge kill someone? One in 3? One in 5? One in 10? And the issue for me in suggesting that ‘lots of DGU didn’t even require a gun to be drawn’ (especially since DGU data is overwhelmingly self-reported), how many DGUs a) didn’t require a gun at all, and b) as such, protection could have easily been taken care off in a faster, easier, and safer way - such as installing an alarm system vs keeping a gun in the house. I’ll never ever have to worry about my alarm system shooting my daughter in the head on accident.

425

Well, just based on Heller, there are some limits to what you can and cannot prohibit.

And yet Heller struck down the requirement for trigger locks. It seems to me that you are allowed to keep ready for use gun. Heller doesn’t go into storage requirement, DC didn’t have a storage requirement because they just didn’t permit guns but in light of their position on trigger locks I don’t know if they would find a requirement to keep a gun in a safe as being consistent with the right to self defense.

You can always fall back on run of the mill negligence law (in light of the fact that guns are pretty dangerous) but a special standard for guns that imposes some sort of strict liability is probably not going to be OK.

And yet there are laws in several states that make a distinction for storage requirements based on whether or not there are kids in the house. I think they call it some sort of child endangerment.

The defensive gun uses are usually talking about situations where the gun is not FIRED, not where the gun is not drawn (although I can see why just showing a gun in the holster might be sufficient deterrent in some cases. BTW I thin there are actual numbers on how many accidental gun injuries occur every year.

If I was going to get an alarm, I would just get a dog. You can’t cut the electricity on a dog and while nothing says “get the fuck out of my house” like the sound of racking a pump action shotgun, a dog is right up there.

426

I respect your right to get a dog instead of an alarm and feel fine with that.

I’ll take my alarm, dog, and gun. I’m happy we both have the protection we want and can legally own.

427

You do know that alarm systems also have battery backup, right?

Also, your dog can’t alert the police.

428

Related.

429

You do know that police don’t instantaneously teleport to your house when an alarm goes off, right?

430

You mean you don’t bother calling 911 when someone knocks on your door at 3am, you just open fire?

431

I’d probably grab my gun first, then look through the peep hole, then maybe call 911. A dog barking at this point wouldn’t be bad either, preferably a pit bull.

How about you?

432

If I was home and the alarm was off? Look outside to see who it is, call 911 if I’m that alarmed.

When I’m not at home or asleep, I have an alarm system. It goes off if someone tries to force their way in, and -only- if someone tries to force their way in. It’s quite loud.

Why do you need a gun? Are you that worried about someone actually trying to kick your door down while you’re there? Seriously?

Dogs bark all the time. I doubt neighbors come running over every time your dog barks. Does your pit bull bark on command?

433

I only needed one once, and it was very handy then. Not sure if I will ever need it again, but I like having them. Do you own anything you like but may never need?

Like I said it happened once.

Intruders probably don’t try to break into houses so much when a big dog is barking from inside. Agree or no?

434

Sure you did. :rolleyes:

Not off the top of my head, no. And in any event, I don’t own any object that only exists to kill someone.

Intruders probably don’t try to break into houses when it’s obvious an alarm system is installed. Agree or no?

If you want to argue how many lives are saved by guns…how many lives do you think are saved simply by having an alarm system installed?

435

I did.

Well I suppose some of us are not fortunate enough to afford luxuries. Sucks to be you.:frowning:

None of my guns exist only to kill someone. They all have sporting and recreational utility.

I don’t know how many? I’m all for you having the freedom to get an alarm system, so what’s your problem with me having guns?

436

I have no idea what this means. If you’re trying to measure dick size…I’ll just say I almost certainly make more a month than you make a year.

You use them for sport & recreation do you?

For starters, my alarm system doesn’t have a nasty habit of killing people by accident or mistake. Added bonus, it’s really really really hard to kill yourself by alarm system.

437

How could that be? You said you don’t own anything that you like but don’t need. That means luxuries, you know, things people like but don’t need. Things like extra guns, motorcycles, televisions, etc.

Of course I do.

Right, so I think it’s great you have an alarm. My guns have never killed any people by accident or mistake. BTW, do you think alcohol and tobacco should be outlawed?

438

I don’t know why so many people find this so hard to believe. Hundreds if not thousands of of people defend themselves with a gun every day and yet people find it very difficult to believe that one of the people on this board might have run into that sort of situation.:confused:

You don’t own a fire extinguisher, a first aid kit, a spare tire?

I don’t think Kable does either. He shoots targets a lot more frequently than he kills people… I think.

So you can’t believe that Kable once used a gun in self defense (something that probably happens hundreds of thousands of times every year) but you expect people to believe that you almost certainly make 12 times what some stranger makes in a year? :rolleyes:

How many people do you think are killed by accident or mistake every year?

439

By ‘need’ I assumed you meant ‘use’, or things used for prevention (like, say, alarm systems, that I use daily) or things for safety (fire alarms). I’m sure you think your gun ‘protects’ you. But I think the data’s pretty clear on what happens to ‘safety’ in the home when a gun is present.

Suppose I have a stockpile of bio-chemical weapons. Or a grown adult lion. Should I be allowed to have it? It hasn’t killed anyone (yet).

Outlawed? No. I don’t think guns should be outlawed either btw.

‘Hundreds if not thousands a day’…riiiight. :rolleyes:

Human nature being what it is, I generally assume that the vast, vast majority of DGU cases are grossly overstated or otherwise exaggerated.

Alarm systems save millions a day. And have never killed anyone by mistake.

Over 100,000 a year I’d imagine. Why?

440

Well thats what all the evidence indicates (and even rabid gun grabbers like Hemenway seem willing to acknowledge that is at least hundreds per day)

By guns? Or do you think we’re talking about something else?