It’s just that hand-to-hand combat is not something that modern soldiers are expected to do. It’s like asking which soldiers are better pastry chefs or C++ programmers - what’s the connection between that and being a good infantryman? An experienced bar brawler or mob goon could probably wipe the floor with a Ghurka or a SEAL, but that doesn’t mean that I’d send them on a long-range recon or hostage rescue.
When it gets to “bookstore owner vs diner waitress” I’ll stop watching.
Which quoted my response to #28.
that would be me, and i was responding to the specific comment on why Gurkhas seem to get so much press. my assumption is that this is a recent thing? i certainly did not mean to imply that nobody has ever blah blah blah.
Well… are we talking new bookstore or used bookstore?
OK - this one I have to debate a little. Not to jump Heinlein or anything but even when pocket nukes and beam weapons are standard issue the end of the day still may fall to some Little Brown Fellow with a knife or farming tool and a background in using it creatively. Especially at the “man on man” level as opposed to the “international diplomacy” level. Vietnam was our first chapter in that study and even today there are little refresher courses here and there now and again. Pastry skills when you are snooping and pooping are OK but the ability to kill quick and quiet is forever.
I know experienced bar brawlers who have taken on Ghurkas, Marine recon after WW II, and others. And lost badly. Except when said brawler was a former recon/SEAL/SF. Then we get back to the original question asked.
The people cleaning out Taliban safe houses throughout the ME would beg to differ with you. Yes, they use firing weapons whenever possible, and good planning = no hand-to-hand combat. But when you are cleaning out a building, there comes a time when the enemy is right close.
And when the enemy is right close, you want the likes of a Gurkha or a Guide Cavalryman on your side.
**1 gurkha vs 30 taliban ** ( http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/02/soldier-cited-for-holding-off-up-to-30-taliban-by-himself/ )
**1 unarmed Gurkha vs Bus robbers **( http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/aug/120809-Jawan-Min-Bhadur-Thapa-Kargil-war-veteran-handicapped-paralyzed-armed-robber-thwarted-Mumbai.htm )
**1 Gurkha vs 40 train robbers **( 40 Train Robbers vs. 1 Gurkha - Neatorama )
**Gurkhas protecting the border against illegal immigrants coming from china ( - YouTube )
**
When Argentines heard the Gurkhas were coming they simply gave up.
**and this is what the Gurkha Khukuri can do… **Cold Steel - Gurkha Kukri - YouTube
also watch from 3:51 - YouTube
Also Hitler used to call the Gurkhas the Black Devils (Article from 1914 http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA19141102.2.71.1).
Hitler once said that if he had the GUrkhas on his side, he could capture the whole world. He was known for giving gifts to the Nepal king. (Really??). The first vehicle to ever enter Nepal was a Mercedes car a gift from Hitler. ( Nepal puts Hitler's Mercedes gift on show | The Independent | The Independent)
The only reason I asked is because a coworker and I were discussing bodyguards. Both ex-Seals and ex-Gurkhas are finding no trouble being employed in this capacity. I can imagine a situation in the domestic’s room, break room, etc. during off-hours where one guy rubs the other the wrong way. If this abrasion were allowed to go on unaddressed for a number of weeks the likelyhood that a physical altercation might erupt will probably increase. At this point it would seem likely that one of the body guards might not survive… I was curious as to which. Kickin someones behind is one thing, but someone who never loses that is trying to kick the behind of someone else who never loses is bound to have serious consequences.
The reality is that Gurkahs in today’s army are just as capable as Seals, and vice versa. Both are psychologically conditioned to be as tough as humans can be, both have bodies that are more fit than most humans you’ll meet, both have integrity that runs miles deep, and both require no weapons to kill quickly. It would suck to lose either, and would be a joy to have a staff which included both. I still wonder though, which would fare worse.
I realize this doesn’t seem like a monumental quandry for most of you but there are folks out there who lose sleep over this question.
What leads you to this conclusion?
Well, thats an interesting side note. Slightly off topic it is too… and smells of troll but I’ll answer:
Note that Gurkhas are not SAS/SBS (british special forces)… they are infantry and are trained as such. They do not get the demolitions training that a Seal recieves nor do they recieve some of the special ops tactical trainings. However, the Gurkha soldier is much more than an infantryman. http://www.army.mod.uk/training_education/training/18157.aspx and recieves equal or better hand to hand training than a Seal, especially with edged weapons.
I believe that the candidates which are selected to perform Gurkha training are bringing elements to the table which elevate their capabilities beyond what western Seal candidates bring to the table. Go live in Nepal for a while, see their culture/life and then compare it to ours. Our Seals (god bless em) grew up with X-Box and the freedom of the USA, the Nepalese don’t grow up the same way. Of course Gurkhas come from Nepal. They don’t all milk yaks, but they generally have “less” distraction than we do as a child grows up. These folks are “tougher” right out of the gate, before any military training at all they would kick most Americans asses because they are inherently more physically “fit” and dialed in to a more realistic life. Add in the long lived cultural legacy and one can see how Nepalese kids would dream of beying Gurkha much as our kids dream of being cops or firemen. This makes the whole appear to be greater than the sum of the parts. They are “more” to begin with in some respects.
Whatever the reason, out of all the warlike folks the Brits encountered while empire building, the Gurkhas were kept around. Actually I believe that the Brits didn’t ever defeat them. Additionally, today’s bodyguard market is leaning towards ex-Seals and Gurkhas, regardless of what anyone thinks of them or how “equivilent” they are. Since these are the two “Cadillacs” of bodyguards the question seemed natural to me.
Pardon my bluntness, but that doesn’t seem like a very informed basis to make a judgment. Saying so-and-so grew up with a harder life than some other guy doesn’t mean that, as military professionals, they are just as capable. Would a military organization that recruits exclusively from American inner cities be more capable than one that recruits exclusively from the cushy suburbs?
I don’t know very much at all about the training and equipping for Gurkahs, but I can say with confidence that the training, equipping, and recruiting standards for SEALs is extremely rigid. There must be very, very few military organizations in the world that allow for the extensive training that SEALs receive, not to mention the extensive real-world operational experience that SEALs now have, with a very large number having multiple deployments.
Again, I cannot speak to what degree that Gurkahs have extremely generous budgets for training, nor do I know how often the average Gurkah has been deployed. But relying on the history of the Gurkahs and “how tough they had it growing up” is not a valid analysis.
This thread is like “Gi Joes” vs Ninjas, who would win? WTF is this doing in Great Debates?
Snake Eyes is a Joe and a ninja. What effect does that have on the battle?
Damn, you got me there. What was the name of the uber cool bad Ninja (which had that amazingly cool camo pattern on his white Ninja suit when he joined the Joes) that was the nemesis of Snake Eyes?
AND the Joes have Shipwreck. Who is kinda like a pirate. Or a member of the Village People. Anyway, naval capabilities and nobody ever heard of seafaring ninjas. That HAS to count for something. Or other.
I hear one clear vote for Seal from the troll in the corner, lots of others for the Gurkha. Hand to hand isn’t a sorte or clandestine mission, its hand to hand. My bet is on Gurkha also - he’s simply more of a killer at the core from what I can surmise.
Great debates come in two forms. There are your historically great debates, and then there are your new/potential great debates. One never knows what is going to comprise a great debate until the debate actually occurs. I don’t mind if it gets moved, the thread lasted longer than many.
And GI joes would kick a Ninja’s ass. Guns vs knives? c’mon…
I sincerely doubt that in the situation you describe either would allow it to escalate that far. They each know what the other is capable of, and the SEAL knows that the Gurkha does not grok “just a fight” vs “kill immediately.”
These are not people who use physical prowess to establish dominance or solve petty disputes. They don’t push each other around in elaborate bar-room rituals while looking out the corners of their eyes for their friends to hold them back.
When I picture this fight, lose = die, it never lasts more than 15 seconds, and that would be a pretty long time. It’s a muscle twitch show-down. Whoever gets there first wins; and I’m just sayin’ that’s Gurkha.
Ravenman - Now imagine that the SEAL had spent all that training time on nothing but hand-to-hand with bladed weapons. Maybe a few afternoons with a rifle. And imagine that he’d been butchering dinner since he four. And imagine that what we think of as “deployed” is about equal to him taking a bus home from a neighboring town.
Again, I’m not poo-pooing the SEALs by any stretch. But in this very specific situation? My money’s on G.