Yeah, I’m in a significant funk regarding all manner of romantic activities right now, and have elected to take it out on the faceless masses rather than friends and coworkers. If it helps, I have even less positive things to say about the members of my own gender and their gross inability to cope with basic social niceties like hygiene, conversation about topics not pertaining to sport, and not sending pictures of one’s genitalia to random women on the Internet.
Stranger
And saying “Get over it” is easy, doing it can be extremely difficult, if not impossible for some people. People develop phobias over things that others do not even notice, but the phobias are still real and terribly difficult to get over. When you actually have an event that caused pain and embarrassment, especially during adolescence when almost everything is an embarrassment and you are really forming the beginnings of your adult mindset, telling yourself it doesn’t matter anymore it hard. Getting yourself to believe that? Well, there is a reason so many people can benefit from therapy.
:: nods ::
Changing one’s internal mindset is difficult. This is the mindset that is built by experiences such as I quote above. And each such experience makes it more likely that one will go down the armoured road of defensiveness and withdrawl, and less likely that one will open up and be all sunny and social.
I used to think that changing one’s mindset about this or anything was just a matter of willpower. (“Just think happy thoughts!”)
It’s not so simple. The link goes to Norman Doidge’s website, he who wrote the book “The Brain That Changes Itself.” Doidge talks about neuroplasticity: how our brains get wired and how they can rewire themselves. Basically, the more you think in a certain way, the more you are likely to think in that way, and the harder it is to think differently.
In a way, that is the result of any sort of training, and the genesis of habits: patterns of thought engraved on our drains.
Some of us started behind in learning the social race, and we dropped further and further back as others pulled away. So we have to do more training, more learning, to get to the point that others have already passed. It may or may not be doable; if it is, it takes a hell of a lot of work.
What, do you live in Delta House?
Life sure does take us down some funny paths, doesn’t it.
I dropped out of my only computer programming class in college. Guess what I do for a living.
I hung with the punk rockers in the '80s. Very anti establishment. Err…. Mostly.
I ended up meeting my wife at a rodeo. It was sponsored by the county government that I now work for. That’s quite a story in itself, It’ll be our 13th anniversary August 2nd.
Ya never know. Chin up and eyes open.
Well Duh, its not obvious. We are a realstic gender. We each know our strenghts and weakness and if you are not a conventionally good looking guy you will be hesitant with “signals” especially if you don’t know the person. Take me. I am of medium height, on the fat side of the scale, wear glasses, rather reserved etc. So, when I get “signals”, and if it can be construed either as interest, or as something else, I will go with something else unless proven otherwise.
Its not a self esteem issue either, I know I have strenghts. Looks (and to a lesser extent personality) ain’t one of them and unfortunatly here they are paramount.
Thanks. I think I did finally get over that in my mid 20’s when a somewhat drunk friend-girl kissed me out of the blue at a house party (or at least, to me, it was sudden). That was the first time I ever got an unambiguous signal and therefore the first time I was ever certain a girl liked me.
One more story- This time me and girl both around 30, met at speed dating event. We hit it off well, started off with just lunch but then went on to have several dates. We only saw each other once every week or so (due to her schedule) but we’d talk on the phone multiple times a week. She was upfront about being shy about physical stuff so I was content to end our dates mostly just kissing, but when we went to the park or other places we’d hold hands. After 3 months or so of getting closer, while taking a walk after dinner together I wanted to feel out where things were headed. So asked her how she would feel about me referring to her as my girlfriend. She recoiled in awkwardness and replied, “Oh, I don’t consider us to be dating!”.
So yeah, girls may get less evil after the age of 12 but they do not get any easier to understand. sigh
The strength of the signal here depends on whether you’re British or American.
I’ve been jerked around, but not quite to that extent. My sympathies, as one guy to another.
This. This is what I meant. There is a line beyond which deniability is not very plausible, a point at which the signal-giver has pretty much commited him- or herself to having YES indicated a degree of sexual interest, if not necessary made any promises regarding follow-through.
And I can dance right up close to that line, too. 
Any female who takes it as her natural right to be able to stay on the safe side of the line is going to go home with someone else. Or alone. It’s an equality thing. It’s totally and completely an “I need to be seen as just as good a person, just as real a person, as you are” thing. I’m not a misogynist but I am totally competitive on this kind of level… think of me as the male equiv of the feminist who does not hate men but is simply NOT going to just let them win and does in fact take pleasure at beating them at their own game.
Think of me also as the male equiv of the feminist who would rather be alone than partnered up with a guy who isn’t up for that (either for the content of it or because she takes it so DAMN serously). And therefore quite often IS alone. Yes, I’m ponderously and grindingly serious about it too. (Not quite humorless but it’s a technicality)
…assuming they aren’t already. :eek:
Exactly. I’ve always been shy, but I’d probably have atleast gotten up the courage to ask someone out by now if not for some fairly minor stuff. Things hit you harder at that age.
One of my perpetually-single-but-has-lots-of-female-friends mates from uni tells me this is why he routinely “misses” signals- he’s basically ignoring them. I’ve certainly seem him with female friends at the pub and they’re sending what seems to me to be Very Obvious Signals, and when I’ve called him the next day to see how the rest of his evening was, his response is basically that she’s not interested in him “like that” (could have fooled me, sitting on his lap and carrying on in a Most Suggestive Manner all evening).
In fact, I think most- if not all- men have at least one story about a woman whom they thought was definitely, absolutely, really interested in them, only to have her say “Eww, no” or “I like you as a friend” or “I’m just not ready right now” or something like that when he asks her out. Even for sane, well adjusted, socially adept people that sort of thing only has to happen two or three times and the radar gets switched off, so to speak.
People really want to be liked, and they’ll flirt with you even if they don’t like you, because they want YOU to like THEM. I’ve done it, and I’ve had it done to me. You absolutely can not tell for sure if someone likes you “like that” until you ask them. Women will sit in your lap one night, and give a very uncomfortable “I’m sorry you got the wrong impression” speech the next. It’s maddening enough that I learned to completely ignore clues both subtle and obvious, and if I felt there might be a connection, I would lay it on the table, in the open. I would not guess.
I should add that my dating experience is very limited. I married the first person I met that I didn’t have to play the flirting game with.
Really? Because that sure sounds like dating…a twelve year old. If a pair of full grown adults aren’t sure if they want to have an adult sexual relationship after a few dates, what the hell are they waiting for?
What I am seeing in this thread is a consistant theme of passiveness and inability to take control of your own lives. She wants this, she wants that, I can’t read her, does she like me, and so on. Everything is dependant on the womans decisions. It all sounds like someone who is so desperate that they will fixate onto anyone who will show them the time of day. And then when they find out they were just giving them the time, they are devestated.
Devastated? I think that’s a severe exaggeration. I see guys who become a lot more cautious after some ambiguous (and sometimes bizarre) signals. I don’t equate this to having their souls crushed.
Yeah, my soul didn’t get crushed until years later, when I had finally gotten some self-confidence and dated someone. She did a real good job on it.
ahh… mixed signals. put me in the camp of bad experiences. hell the last date i went on was the worst for those. thought i read signals right, asked her to dinner. Went to dinner, and everything seemed to be going well. We shared some common interests other than what we were doing when we met, talked for a good couple hours. I even got an “omg YOUR Pope Hentai? i totally met you at an anime con before”, and the night ended with a nice long kiss after an unplanned walk through a park. After that she never returned a call or txt, and ignored me the next time i saw her. Will barely even acknowledge it happened at all.
that’s not the only time something like that has happened. Needless to say I tend not to notice signals, because they obviously don’t mean much, or probably were meant for the guy i just happen to be standing next to. (yes, thats happened too)
*I’m dumb she’s a lesbian
Thought I had found the one
We were good as married in my mind
But married in my mind’s no good
Oooooh pink triangle on her sleeve
Let me know the truth
Let me knooooow the truth*
Thank you for this. As a woman I have never really been interested in these games either. It annoyed me to see girls flirting with guys they had no interest in, just flirting for flirting’s sake. It seemed so pointless and even a little degrading. But I wasn’t going to sit on the sidelines doing nothing, either. If I really liked a guy (and to really like him, I had to know him as a friend), I would tell him. And I was rejected probably about as often as I was not. But knowing that I didn’t have to waste my time dancing around the issue was worth it for me. I have always been very no-nonsense when it comes to relationships–and I do mean always. I remember when I was 7 years old jerking my 9-year-old ‘‘boyfriend’’ behind the bleachers, grabbing him by the collar and laying one on him.
Of course, when you are unaware of your depth of feelings for someone, it can get complicated. My husband and I were very close friends sort of hemming and hawing around the issue for months, not because we were cowards, but because we really didn’t understand what was happening until we were in deep. You know, we were writing love letters without realizing we were in love. Everyone else saw it way before we did.
But when I DID finally get it, I tested the waters with a few romantically-oriented comments, gauged the reaction, and then plunged right in.
Because we were long-distance at the time, I sent him an e-mail that, among other things said, and I quote this verbatim:
It ended that way, without even a signature. I sent it immediately to get it over with.
When I told my Aunt what I had said, she was horrified. ‘‘Never, EVER be the first to tell a man you love him!’’
‘‘Why not?’’ I said. ‘‘I do love him. Why evade the truth?’’ But I was worried. Man, I was worried. Because I’d never in my life felt this strongly about someone. The stakes were never higher.
The next day, he responded with an e-mail full of warmth, affection, and anticipation of our next visit… but made absolutely no reference whatsoever to the fact that I had told him I was falling in love with him. NO REFERENCE WHATSOEVER.
So I concluded that he planned to address the issue at our next meeting–either he felt the same way or he just didn’t return the feelings but wanted to preserve our incredibly meaningful friendship.
That evening, we were talking online, and I made a comment about being nervous to see him.
‘‘Why?’’ he asked.
:dubious:
So I brought up the email, and he said, I shit you not, ‘‘Yeah, I wasn’t entirely sure what you meant by that.’’
:o
Now if this was any other guy, I would have assumed he was blowing me off, but I knew he was sincere because it’s all he knows how to be.
So I said, ‘‘Let me make this perfectly clear. I am falling in love with you.’’
Pause. ‘‘Oh.’’
Longer pause. ‘‘I thought that might be what you meant, but I wasn’t sure.’’
:smack:
Longest pause in the history of instant messaging. ‘‘I’m falling in love with you too!’’
So there you have it, folks. The most clueless man in history, and I married him. There is hope for you, believe it.
Olivesmarch4th, I love you a little more today for telling that story. Thank you!
Clearly the date didn’t go as well from her point of view. I’ve been on plenty of dates like that. You meet, hit it off, go out for dinner, maybe hook up a bit, and then nothing. I even used to hook up with one of my coworkers meanwhile she is complaining about this other coworker she’s dating (I think they eventually got married a few months later).
Who knows why she didn’t want to go out with you again? Maybe she decided to get back together with her boyfriend? Maybe she just felt there weren’t any sparks? Maybe she was just bored so she went on the date as something to do? Who cares? You went on a date and it didn’t work out for reasons that probably have nothing to do with you. Move on to the next girl.
Maybe it is. What I am saying is that these particular sort of guys seem a little hypersensitive and internalize the rejection. It’s not “oh she was just nuts” or “ah well, it just didn’t work out”. They are like “well…I guess I just don’t understand women.”