their=They’re.
Grrr…want edit feature.
I’ve read plenty of those right here, thanks.
Me neither. You’ve neither changed nor grown, so why’re you pissed at me for recognizing your failure?
Pissed at you? Why on earth would I be pissed at you? I thought you had a disconnect between reality and after school specials. Now I see you have a disconnect between yourself and the entire world including simple decency.
As for change and growth doctor heal thyself.
I’ve also grown curious about this line
Where exactly in this story was I being a sanctimonious liberal? I didn’t know growing upset about racism makes me liberal. Oh wait I know it’s not liking kill the faggot jokes. I suppose it’s possible that it’s the atheist part. Because we all know there’s no such thing as a conservative atheist. Really if that’s what paints someone as a liberal I don’t think I mind that tag at all.
As for sanctimonious I don’t know where you get that from either. Sitting there lecturing them on ‘Bigots are bigots because they are afraid. Show them you are not afraid and that there is nothing to fear.’ strikes me as far more sanctimonious then walking out and informing them I do not intend to return.
I’ve been a fan of your posts for quite a while now, Libertarian, so I hate to direct my first post toward you against you. But have you gone daft?
Seriously. You seem full of vitriol toward a whole lot of people lately. Where do you get the idea anyone’s pissed at you? All Darkhold wants of you is to recognize the futility of convincing others of their own ignorance. People enjoy their ignorance; Darkhold could have tried to snap them out of it, but it would be bizarre to expect him to do the essentially impossible.
What would you have wanted him to do? Try to convine them they’re wrong? That wouldn’t have done any good - the best trying it would have done is create familial rifts and reinforce his family’s negative notion of the socially liberal. We’ve got to keep our heads in the real world sometimes and not go out too far on unsteady limbs. Sometimes peace is well worth forgoing principle.
This portion of the SDMB is specifically for complaining. Darkhold complained about his racist family, and he’s got a reason to complain. You’re complaining that he didn’t try to change the immutable. That’s unreasonable of you.
I appreciate that, and I understand your concern.
To do it? I agree. But he can try. Try first, and then come back to bitch. Nothing tried is ever failed. The attempt itself is a triumph. I do not believe that bigots are ignorant. Many are quite intellegent, and some are even liberal. (Not every bigot hates only whom the conservative bigots hate.) Bigotry is hatred, and hatred is born of fear. People can be both intelligent and afraid. I’m not talking about a phobia; I’m talking about a rational fear — a fear based not on lack of knowledge, but on mistaken judgment.
I do not advocate a confrontation. He is as afraid of them as they are of him. A confrontation would result in fear meeting fear. A disaster. What I advocate is that he first overcome his own fear. And since you’ve read me for a long time, you know that I have always advocated that we not be afraid of bigots. It was I who pleaded on behalf of the (original) Stormfronters, that they be allowed to post in Great Debates. My advocacy turned out to be unnecessary, though. Gaudere wisely allowed them to debate, requiring of them only that they follow the same rules we all follow. In the end, we won the debate. And they did not leave until they learned that we were not afraid of them. What I recommend that Darkhold (or anyone else) do in such a situation is, after dropping the baggage of his own fear, make them not afraid of him. In confrontation, he would be part of what they fear — the champion of the opposition, and therefore their enemy. But if he makes peace with them, then we have a man who is not afraid talking with people who are not afraid of him. It is at that point that a gestalt will occur. Once everyone is assured that no monsters are boldly standing in the middle of the room, you can begin to explore the closets, look under the beds, check behind the drapes. Someone has mentioned Jesus, and as I understand His ministry, He did not lecture anyone except religion politicians — people of power who used their influence over others for personal gain. If Darkhold wants to do what Jesus did, then he will first and foremost not be afraid, and second but equally important, allay all fear. Drink with them. Listen to their stories. Ask them why they’re afraid. Show them by your own example that being fearless is being wise. These people aren’t even strangers; they are his family. Give them the gift of unconditional love, because that is what they are empty of. Be so unafraid that they seek out your counsel and judgment in order to weigh it against their own.
The immutable? Immutable is as immutable does, I reckon.
Ye gods and little fishes, Darkhold… don’t prod the Walking Naive. They are happy in their distorted, tiny glass houses, with their ultra-polarized, knee-jerk responses at the ready. Why bang your head against that wall?
I swear if I accidentally delete one more long post I typed out…
In short
If you had presented your argument that way before I doubt there would have been any misunderstanding of your position. This now looks like rationalization but I suppose you deserve the benefit of the doubt. (note:not trying to be sanctimonious)
I’m not afraid of my family. Never have been. I’m not afraid of confronting them. There is no point in this case other then stirring shit up just to stir stuff up. This is a simple parting of the ways. Your assertion that the reason I can’t confront them is fear based is simply incorrect.
They aren’t afraid of other races (at least I don’t think) they are not paranoid or afraid they are losing the country or any of that. It says in your profile you are from the south so you should know that racism can become a way of life for some people. They simply believe other races are lower then them. My Uncle X in particular should know better considering he runs a business that for years hired Mexicans and Indians. He’s slowly edged them out though and now I’m fairly sure he only has white people working for him now. If experience and 40+ years of watching the myths of racism come crumbling down can’t convince him I cannot either. Originally I had planned to have them learn by association (ie if my relationship with the girl had moved past a certain point to start having her come here for the holidays in inserting her into the family similar to what my brother seems to want to do with his Mexican fiance) but I do not have the patience for that. Perhaps that makes my brother more patient and tolerant then me but I don’t want to have my family making snide comments behind my back about who I choose to love as my wife did the heavy lifting to get accepted. (I have heard a lot of “those Mexicans are lazy bastards aren’t they…except for Her.” this last year)
No, instead you are demonstrating that OTHER liberal fault, being wishy-washy. C’mon, either Lib was right or he was wrong. Giving the benefit of the doubt is for hairy-legged lesbians and their turkey-bastered gray babies, you pussy! 
“Gray babies?” And they know your girlfriend is black? And you didn’t punch anybody? You are a better man than I am, my friend. (a dismayed 
)
This would be true if we were talking about ONE Libertarian. Are you going to tell me that the Lib who said
is the same guy who said
The dude on top seems to me to be completely reasonable and agreeable in his non-confrontational take of the situation. The guy on the bottom seems to be egging Darkhold on to a fight.
Where was Libertarian’s confrontation avoidance when he was trying to convince Darkhold that he should have acted instead of walking away? Darkhold is supposed to be Mr Nice Guy in dealing with his bigoted family, but Lib can call him a sanctimonious failure? I call bullshit on that.
Lib, the reason half the pit threads you join turn into Lib bashing is that you don’t follow your own (reasonable) advice. You jump in attacking then get surprised when people fight back. Or, are you really surprised at all?
I don’t recognize your screen name or your location, but I have reason to believe we’re members of the same family and have attended the same Easter celebration.
My mother, who’s intelligent enough to know better, once made me swear that I’d never date a black woman. “You’ll always be my child… but I could never accept Caucroid* grandchildren.”
When I was 29 she learned I was gay. I think now I could tell her I’m dating a 14 year old black prostitute and she’d greet her with “Call me Mama, darlin’!”, but meanwhile Mama Sampiro got her wish… in the Twilight Zone. (At Easter dinner this year she almost gagged when my Fundamentalist sister, who doesn’t know I’m gay [I’m just 37 and love showtunes and am shy around girls] asked “So when are you gonna meet somebody? Way things are going the queers are gonna get married before you do.” (Probably about six of one, half dozen of the other, sis…)
*Caucroid- a derogotory term for “half-Caucasian/half-Negroid” that far more people than you would think still find howlingly amusing. It’s usually followed with a “but seriously folks” spiel about how “mixed marriages are bad enough, but it’s the kids who really suffer, cause they don’t fit in anywhere…” delivered by people who are seemingly unaware that they themselves are the fucking reason that biracial children encounter prejudice. (Thinking people don’t give a rat’s ass about your ethnicity or your ancestry- they acknowledge it like they would any other demographic and then judge you as an individual, as in “I can tell from your skin and your hair that the people at this table are of northern European ancestry and from your conversation I can tell that you are racist fucking asshats… whom I still unfortunately love… please pass the chicken”.)
And I am guessing that soon after this post old Lib will come along with some self-abusing post about how you are right and he will try to be a better Christian or some such. All part of his merry little cycle, as far as I can tell.
Holy Moley! I’d have broken china over someone’s head!
I don’t “get” the idea that you can relieve racist/homophobic/whatever people of their prejudices by educating them out of their “fears.” Sometimes hatred is just hatred and prejudice is just a way of trying to feel superior when you have nothing of your own to be proud of. Overcoming that in the course of an Easter dinner is a tall order.
Sometimes behavior modification beats psychoanalysis, and sometimes walking away (while letting people know why you are doing so) beats lecturing. If you can’t change people’s minds, at least you may be able to persuade them to stop acting like assholes in your presence by showing them that if they act offensively, you will leave.