Harper Makes No confidence motion. Canadian government likely to fall. Election time!

Are we just going to go back and forth asking the same questions? My point is the effect of good/bad relationships in this issue has little or nothing to do with the resolution of said issues because a) Americans have no idea about Parrish and her comments, so that matters not at all, b) Bush has very little influence on trade disputes, c) its the congress that can solve this, the congress cares about 1 thing only, getting re-elected, for this they need money, they get money from lobbyists.

So you admit it has little do with the dispute but insist it could help solve it? Ooookay then.

Because the guy who can drag his country into a war by convincing those same congressmen probably can use some of that same influence to help with trade disputes if he wants to.
And while you may think the typical American cares not a whit about what a person like Parrish says, she doesn’t say it in a vacuum. Was there a huge uprising in her riding to remove her? No, so she must have struck a thread with her constituents somehow. Those people who deal with Canada probably do know about comments like hers. You think this has no influence? If you are standing outside your office building talking to a friend and say that everyone you work for is an idiot which is overheard by some co-workers at the next table, do you think they just ignore your comments? This is why we are going over this. But you are correct there is no point in bringing it up anymore. Obviously, we have different perceptions on human relations and how we interact with each other.

You can’t “remove” an MP for dumb remarks, which might explain why there wasn’t an uprising. It’s like asking why there wasn’t an uprising for making the Sun rise in the West.

It didn’t stop her from getting re-elected, though.

The current state of the relationship between Canada and the US

Nah.

This won’t hurt the Liberals in Ontario at all. It’s playing extremely well. In Toronto, David Miller’s supporting it (his administration has been a disaster so far, so any help he can get is welcome) and outside Toronto not enough people own handguns to care. To be quite honest I thought it was already nearly impossible to own a handgun.

The gun registry was unpopular because it affected a lot of people. Lots of people have shotguns and .22 rifles for plugging squirrels. Vanishingly few people have legally owned handguns. Most people think handguns are the work of Satan. The perception is that handguns are evil and vaguely American, which are Bad Things. If the Conservatives oppose this vocally the Liberal will cast them as NRA gun nuts.

Of course, this ban will not help anything and would not have prevented any of the murders that have taken place in Toronto this year, but that doesn’t seem to matter.

Not only that, Harper was one of only two reform mp’s to vote in favor of the gun registry. I don’t imagine he wants to discuss that too much in this election. I suppose he could always say that he was in favor until the Liberals turned it into a boondogle, but that would only please conservative supporters who weren’t in favor of the registry on purely economic grounds.

There are over half a million handgun owners in Canada. That’s a lot of people to slap in the face, just to make an idiotic political statement. There is no, ZERO evidence that banning handguns will reduce crime one bit. If anything, it will increase the number of assaults and home invasions. It is simply pointless, feel-good legislation at the expense of a lot of people. I have a friend who has thousands of dollars worth of handguns. He’s supposed to just turn them all in? Any ‘buyback’ program the Liberals come up with will only pay him pennies on the dollar I’m sure. “Oh, but we’ll give you some time to sell them, if you wish.” Sell them to WHO? Unless they are rare, licensed gun collectors won’t be interested, and no one else can buy them. Sell them in the U.S.? It’s hellishly difficult.

No, people like my friend and myself (our family owns one, and it’s worth maybe $600) are just going to take it on the chin so that the Liberals can be re-elected.

This issue has turned me from a ‘pox on all their houses’ disinterested spectator to someone who now seethes with a passion to get rid of the Liberals. I’ll probably donate some money to the Conservatives. It’s almost enough to make me leave the country. I find this kind of abuse of the citizenry for political gain to be highly offensive. And on a more philosophical point, being able to own a handgun is symbolic of a person’s right to be free. Once we are totally disarmed, we are at the mercy of the state for our protection, and we are powerless to rise up should it ever become despotic.

Yesterday I heard a Liberal MP claim that freedom to own handguns “was not a Canadian value”. SCREW HIM. 500,000 Canadians clearly value them enough to spend money to buy them. I am sick and tired of these scumbags putting their own platform on the mantle of ‘Canadian values’, as if we all march in lockstep to the Liberal ethos.

If this actually gets passed as a federal law, I hope Alberta invokes the notwithstanding clause and refuses to play along. But it probably won’t. The muted reaction to this from all quarters has surprised me. There was more furor over the gun registry than an actual ban on handguns.

Really Sam Stone you fell that strongly about the issue? I am just surprised that is all. I respect your opinions, I just really don’t get this one. I see absolutely no reason to ever own a gun for any reason, don’t see how banning guns could possibly cause an increase in home invasions, and I am 100% behind RickJay on this one. This while maybe not applauded in Ontario could only hurt the conservatives here if they react strongly.

Yeah? Well, pick something you enjoy, like maybe skiing, or reading certain kinds of fiction, or watching movies, or whatever it is that you do that you enjoy, then see how you feel when I send someone to take it away from you, because after all, no one ‘needs’ to watch movies, or ski…

And with guns there is a larger issue, which I think Americans understand much better than do Canadians - when a populace is allowed to arm itself and defend itself, it keeps the relationship between the government and the people straight. The people empower the government. The government exists to guarantee the rights and freedoms of the people.

In Canada, it seems more and more that people see government as their nanny. We want to be cared for by the government from cradle to grave. We want government to look after our children, to protect us from ourselves, and to tell us the right way to live and act. We allow government to tell us what we can say, what opinions are legal to share with others, and what activities are too dangerous for our own good.

We’re well down the slippery slope. In the 25 years I’ve been an adult, I have seen the people of this country grow increasingly sheep-like. We’ll elect crooked governments, allow them to ram all sorts of things down our throats, and take it as long as they wrap it in ‘Canadian values’ and keep the nanny state humming along.

I knew the Liberals were craven enough to attempt to buy back their power with a handgun ban, despite promises that they wouldn’t during the debate over the gun registry. What has surprised me is the complete uncaring attitude of the Canadian people towards this bombshell.

I’ve seen sources that place it at half of that, and probably half of those will get an exemption from the law.

Given the rarity of handgun ownership I doubt that second sentence, but it’s simply not relevant. The point here is not whether or not a ban will help. Of course it won’t. It’s plainly stupid to think it will, and everyone knows it, so there’s nothing to debate there. The point is that it was a terrific early campaign move.

Queuing, no, you are not 100% behind me. It’s a smart campaign move, but I totally disagree with you on the issue; it’s stupid policy.

If you see “absolutely no reason to ever own a gun for any reason” (help stamp out and eliminate redundancy!) then you are free to choose not to own one. Why force other people to at the way you choose to act? I see absolutely no reason to ever go to church, but I’m not going to force other people to stay at home Sunday mornings.

The handgun ban is ridiculous, as policy. Canada does not have a gun violence problem as the result of legally owned guns. Gun violence, almost exclusively, involved illegally smuggled guns. Prohibiting law abiding people from owning handguns won’t solve anything.

I would tend to agree with RickJay on this point. I know many, many people who own firearms, and virtually none of them own handguns. Even out west I don’t think many people will care; certainly it won’t be as big a deal as the gun registry. Handguns are useless for hunting and pest control, which are the primary uses of the vast, vast majority of firearms in this country.

Which is not to endorse the announced policy - it is a stupid waste of time given how restricted handguns already are. It’s clearly an attempt to score votes in Ontario, though, and it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if it plays well there.

I got a call from the Conservatives (me being a member and all) asking for money. I told them that I think it was stupid to raise the SSM issue and they would probably lose because of it. I wanted a party that was concerned only with allowing me to keep as much of the money I make as possible and to forget all the other nonsense about what people choose to do in their own bedrooms. I don’t need to replace one nanny government for another. So, they aren’t getting another dime from me at this point.

I already work outside the country, yet still continue to live in Canada. It has given me a better perspective on the world, I think. My wife and I hope to move to Hong Kong in the future. Max tax rate at 15% even though the cost of living is higher. Although we may remain in Alberta to see how things work out here in the future. You can’t drive through the UAE and see what oil money has done there to give up on Alberta yet.

Why is it that the handgun issue is always debated on terms of whether or not you ‘need’ a handgun, or whether or not it will reduce crime? How about discussing it as an issue of freedom vs state control?

Can you imagine if we debated our other freedoms the way we debate guns? A free press? Well, isn’t it worth curbing someone’s right to speak if it would result in a good outcome for society to do so? Isn’t that pretty much the justification for restrictions of a free press in any despotic country? To maintain peace, and order, and stability. All those rabble-rousers and protestors - it would be great if we just silenced them so that we could live in more harmony.

And motorcycles - there’s no ‘need’ for a motorcycle, and they have accident rates much higher than that of cars. Think of the hundreds of lives a year we could save if we just banned motorcycles. Every one of those dead bike riders is someone’s child. Think of the poor mothers, losing hundreds of children a year to those death traps!

Private airplanes? Ban them! A bunch of rich people’s toys, emitting far more pollutants than car engines. These airports take up all kinds of space that could be used for other things. No one needs an airplane. And dozens of people a year are killed in Canada in small plane crashes. Perhaps as many as are killed by guns. They’re not environmentally friendly, they are noisy for people who live by the airport, and they certainly don’t help the poor or disadvantaged. Private airplane ownership is a travesty, I tell you.

And skiing is a horrible thing. We tear up pristine mountain areas, develop them, cut down trees, and build hotels. And for what? So a few crazies can fly down a mountain at high speed? No one needs to do that. Think of what we could do if those billions of dollars were put into education or health care! And speaking of health care, why should I have to pay for the broken legs and physical therapy of someone who thought it was their ‘right’ to go flying down a mountain? WE pay for their medical care. Why do we tolerate this?

And of course, there’s porn, strip clubs, alcohol, gambling… These things destroy lives, put people into the social welfare system, bring crime into our communities, and exploit women. And no one ‘needs’ any of it! It should all be illegal. We’d be better off as a country, right?

Where do you want to stop with this line of thinking? When you abandon principle and start approaching every issue as a purely pragmatic, “Whatever’s best for the country” issue, then all that stops you from banning anything is that there’s a big enough constituency to protect it. Rule of the mob. THEIR fetishes, hobbies, and destructive activities are protected. But if you’re in a small enough minority, the only thing protecting your interests is obscurity. The mob simply isn’t paying attention. But once they do, look out.

That’s not the kind of country I want to live in. I want to live in a country where it is understood that people have a right to live their own lives, and that restrictions on those rights should only happen when there is absolute necessity or when you are directly damaging other people through your actions.

Look what has happened with the smoking debate. At first, anti-smoking advocates claimed that the problem was lack of education. People just didn’t know how dangerous smoking was. So we got mandatory health notices and public funding for anti-smoking campaigns. That was the least intrusive invasion of our rights. But then they wrapped themselves in the second-hand smoke argument, claiming that you WERE hurting others by smoking in enclosed public spaces. So smoking was banned in enclosed public spaces, despite the fact that the second-hand smoke argument rested on very flimsy science. But these advocacy groups never just go away when they’ve gotten enough of what they want. And our standards for what’s acceptable slide after every encroachment on our freedoms. So now we’re starting to ban smoking completely - even outdoors. Note that there is no longer ANY justification for this - no one can credibly make an argument that you are hurting anyone else when you are smoking outside, and they don’t even try. As far as I can tell, the argument is now, “Society has decided that smoking is unacceptable, so we’re just go to ban it wherever we feel like banning it.” There’s no longer even the barest of nods to basic Canadian rights to be left alone when we aren’t hurting others, like there was when the smoking debate started.

When the gun registry was enacted, anti-registry folks were opposed in part on the grounds that the gun control people would never be happy with just registration, but once the people acquiested to this, they’d move on to confiscation. At the time, the Liberals promised, cross-their-hearts, that they had no intention of actually taking anyone’s guns away. Now they have broken their promise - and not because new evidence shows that it would be a good thing for society, or for any other pressing reason. No, they broke their promise merely because some consultant told them it would play well among a certain part of the electorate they needed to hold. This should make anyone sick of these people.

Don’t be too quick to give up on Alberta over taxes and regulations. We still have it pretty good here in that regard. The Frazer Institute and the Heritage Foundation did a joint study on economic freedom in North America. They included personal taxes, business taxes, regulations, and other factors. The result was that all the American states were on top, and all the Canadian provinces on the bottom - except for one. Alberta was ranked better than half of the American states, and far, far better than any other Canadian province. Part of that is our lack of a provincial sales tax, and part is our generally business-friendly, low tax provincial government in general. Alberta is still a pretty good place to live for those who desire economic freedom.

No, I haven’t given up yet. I know all the stuff you posted. Alberta has the opportunity to grow in an unprecedented way shortly. Take a look at the UAE as I suggested. They have 22% of the building cranes in the world working there now. There reserves of oil are far, far less than ours. We only have to worry about those who would take our opportunity and spend it in the black hole of vote buying in the rest of the country.

What I meant for being behind you was that it will not hurt the Liberal party in Ontario at all, and if the Conservatives try to make a big deal out of it, it will only hurt their campaign here in Ontario. I was only talking about the running of the campaign, not the issue itself. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

Well gun violence may almost exclusively be from illegally smuggled guns, that still means there are some incidents of violence being a result of legal guns. If we get rid of legal guns, then we get rid of this problem. As well, maybe it will make it harder to smuggle guns into Canada by making it a greater punishment, I do not know if this is part of policy, just a possible benefit of said policy.

Sam Stone there is a major difference between skis and guns. It is generally accepted that skis don’t kill people. As well, this is just a handgun ban, not a long gun ban so you could still hunt, which is about the only legitimate use of a gun I can see.

My handgun has never killed anyone. It sits in its locked case day after day. Occasionally I think I can hear sawing sounds from inside, but so far it is tightly contained.

This is true for pretty much every registered handgun in Canada. Even the police are admitting that a handgun ban is pointless.

Anyway, I’ve calmed down a bit after hearing more details of this ‘ban’. Not because I agree with it, but because it’s completely pointless. See, the Liberals don’t actually want to ban handguns - they want to ‘create the legal conditions so that provinces can ban them’. In other words, it’s just a smokescreen, a cynical ploy to gain support in urban areas in the east from voters who don’t pay too close attention to the fine print of Liberal proposals. Just one more example of how slimey they are.

BTW, Ralph Klein in Alberta has already announced that Alberta will not ban handguns, just like Alberta refuses to enforce long gun registration. So unless the Liberals change their minds and try to make it a federal law, this will just open a widening gap in freedom between Alberta and the rest of Canada.

You’re quite the little authoritarian Queuing. In fact it seems that you trust the government far more than you trust your fellow citizens. Why would you give greater weight to a government policy driven by fantasy then the fact that those injured by handguns every year are primarily injured by owners of un-registered handguns? You would deprive a large swath of the law abiding population of their property simply because you see no need for it and it may somehow, though your not sure how, help do something?

Can you imagine a scenario where someone else, with a better lobby than yours, does the same to you?

Where did I give greater weight to a government policy? It was said that the majority of gun crime was committed by illegally smuggled guns. To look at it another way, it means a minority of gun crime is committed by legal handguns. To me if we could get one more gun out of the potential hands of someone who may do crime with it, it could only help the situation.

The second part was more of a request for information, wondering what else this part of the platform contains. I was wondering if it did have further ramifications for illegal guns. This is not a hot button issue for me. I really don’t care either way, much like child care discussions of this will not swing my vote either way.

I admit I see no purpose in owning a handgun, you can’t go hunting with it (or at least it seems you can’t, I nothing of the “sport” of hunting), and I don’t buy Sam Stone’s reasoning of it being essential to protect democracy, and ensure that our government doesn’t run all over our rights. Not because it isn’t an interesting arguement, but because I am just not worried about our government turning into a dictatorship. Call me naive if you want.

As the rest of what Sam Stone said, the list of items he wants to compare to gun ownership, society has already decided to ban many things, drugs first and foremost. If we allow all things we would be living in a libertarians dream, where each person is free to do what they want. We don’t. We have rules and regulations for the greater good. Maybe handguns fall under this, as no one has shown any benefits to handguns here, just said they enjoy them. Well maybe I like to fuck dogs while doing lines off a baby’s ass, however that is banned and I doubt to many here would want it otherwise. Why is this banned? Because the potential harm to others is to great. Same with smoking. Maybe the same with handguns.

As to Grey of course I can imagine someone with a better lobby then myself banning something I enjoy. I enjoy seeing Homosexuals get married.