http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=147772&pagenumber=4
Uzi Said:
Uzi, what do you expect these people to do? Do you want the entire province of Newfoundland to pack up and move to Alberta? (Even though it seems like it already has).
A 45 year old farmer from Saskatchewan isn’t going to learn to be a microchip designer, nor is the 50 y.o. fisherman.
How are they going to “Pick up the slack?” I’d love to know, as I am sure the other provinces would too.
Becaus it is the RIGHT thing to do. It isn’t possible for everyone everywhere to be as productive. Where do you think Alberta would be without its oil? On par with Saskatchewan perhaps?
There is a reason somewhere gets $1.20 and you get $0.80. That is what being a COUNTRY, a COMMUNITY is all about. Everyone getting their fair share. You can’t see that this doesn’t always mean 1:1. I hope you never lose your job Uzi. Because I know that you would be too proud to accept UI or even Welfare no matter how difficult you may find it to get another one to keep you in the quality of life that you are used to. You pay to provide the safety net. You have the POTENTIAL to need it one day. Don’t begrudge those that do. I make alot of money. I pay alot of taxes. Would my life be personally better off if I paid less? Of course. Would my down on his luck neightbour’s be? No. And one day I might be there myself. To me making sure that everyone is fed, clothed, warm, and alive is more important that the new gas guzzling SUV you probably are dying to own if you don’t already. Hae some compassion. You might be alot happier if you realize that true success comes not in what you have in your bank account but the happiness you get in your heart from being a good neighbour.
An example from the news a few years ago. Fishermen (the ones interviewed were in their 20’s) were given payments to stop fishing (from what I understand permanently). What did they do with the money that was supposed to be used for retraining? They built houses with it in the same area where there were no jobs other than fishing. Their reason? The government would come up with some other sort of payment because they always have in the past.
I have no problem with helping people, but there has to be a limit doesn’t there? If you keep sending money will people come to expect it and not find solutions to their problems?
I think I recall your example. If memory serves, it was a Cod license that they were asked to surrender for cash. The thing with that though, is there are other species that they could fish for.
While I do agree with you that people that are chronically on “the dole” shouldn’t be, it isn’t as easy as “get a job.”
Where I live in Alberta, if I wasn’t fussy I could probably get a $15/hour job within a day or two with just my high-school education… and thats whats bringing so many people here.
The problem is, in Saskatchewan, BC, Newfoundland and New Brunswick, etc, it isn’t that easy. You’ve got hundreds of thousands of people that just can’t “get a job”. There just isn’t the industry left in those provinces to employ them… and to create new industry invariably costs money.
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Saskatchewan has oil, Newfoundland has oil, Nova Scotia has oil, BC has oil and gas and huge amounts of other resources besides.
What makes them not able to effectively utilize these resources to the same benefit of their population that Alberta has? Should I not have the right to question why my money goes to support those who have every opportunity to be as successful as we are? Is it being neighbourly of them to not do their best?
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I’ve been so poor that I’ve been days away from living on the street. When I was growing up we lived without power and had to use a wood stove for heat. I never once thought that it was anyone elses obligation to help me out.
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I don’t own a SUV, nor have I ever desired to do so. They burn far to much gas, are bad for the environment, and are dangerous to other drivers. Is that compassionate enough for you?
Is there a difference between being neighbourly and being taken advantage of?
Yes, people come to where the jobs are because they realize that there are no jobs where they were living before. Makes sense. Same as I did 20 years ago.
Why has industry left those provinces? Could it be high taxes and an unfriendly business environment? If that is the case then who’s fault is that? And as money is sent to governments, the same governments that caused business to leave in the first place, how will they create jobs? Governments don’t create jobs, businesses do. So, unless they change their attitude then how they ever become more prosperous? And should I have to pay for their lack of foresight?
So, screw 'em then, right? It’s their governments fault 5-20 years ago for not having foresight. They citizens elected them after all, right? So it’s the peoples fault then.
Yes, other provinces have some deposits of oil and gas, but not nearly the same extent that Alberta does. The largest ones outside of Alberta are off shore. They cost billions to exploit. Money that the private sector isn’t going to invest until its worthwhile for them.
Sure, other provinces could lower taxes to try to entice other business to come, but what are they going to do for the massive shortfall of revenue in the meantime? What happens if big business does’t come? Its a big gamble.
I’m a damn proud Albertan and I am almost certainly lean further right that 90% of this board, but there are some things that we have to do… like it or not.
There are many towns in Newfoundland and New Brunswick where pretty much all the young people have left for Ontario and Alberta.
How is this any different than the prarie farmers who year after year need government subsidies?
What is the solution to the diminished cod stocks? The diminishing lobster stocks? The depleted ores of Cape Breton (and the chemicals, byproducts of steel refining processes, contaminating Sydney’s soil)? The diminishing soil health from improper crop rotation and the increasing occurrence of pesticides in PEI’s inland waterways? What will be the solution to Alberta’s economic woes when the oil is gone (which won’t be tomorrow, but will happen)?
The economic disparity between the Altantic provinces and the rest of the country is undeniable. There is no hard and fast answer to the question of how to redress the balance. So what do we do?
I don’t know … My best guess is an education system that teaches people to think about the future, about consequences. About the quality of life and the standard of living of future generations as well as of our own.
Of course, that brings us to the question of how to pay for that education …
The exploitation of natural resources is a provincial responsibility. Fundamentally, natural resources belong to the country. Who sets energy policy?
You seem to be of the opinion that the haves should keep and the have-nots should suffer. Why don’t you just separate, then? Alberta can take it’s ball and play by itself, and keep all that fabulous oil wealth for itself. While you’re at it, leave behind the poor sections of Alberta that don’t contribute to the economy as much as they take; after all, they’ll just be an unjustifiable drain on the rest of the hardworking Albertans.
I never said screw’em. Nor is that the tone I am trying to take here. If this was the pit I might be inclined to do so, but not here. I think I’m asking reasonable questions. Is it my fault they chose socialism over capitalism and that now they have to pay the price? No I don’t say screw them, but how long should you and I pay for their mistakes? Have you noticed them changing the way they do things? And if they haven’t how long should I be the good neighbour and keep paying? Where does my responsibility end and theirs start?
It is also certain that business aren’t going to go to these places if taxes remain high and they find it hard to deal with the red tape. They’ll go to Alberta and Ontario first before choosing the others. Remember when Alberta went without to pay down our debt? We’re still doing it now and we are still paying others who aren’t making the same sacrifices. Our choice I suppose. BC doesn’t have a leg to stand on with regards to resources, while Saskatchewan might. The maritimes have been net contributors for many years now and have shown little hope of ever being anything but. When does it end? When everyone is equally poor?
Sorry, my last post got accidentally submitted in rough draft form, the last sentence does not belong.
Continuing… In fact, so many people have left New Brunswick that Premier Lord is trying to initiate grand new programs to entice people and industry back to the province.
Yes, the fisheries are subsidised, but then so are prarie farms. Personally I think the government should offer a buy-out plan for family farms as well that just cannot turn a profit.
The wheel of the economy keeps turning. At one point, before confederation, the Atlantic provinces were very wealthy, you can see it in the gigantic Victorian houses here. Not too long ago, BC was complaining about having to give out transfer payments, a few years of bad government and a few busloads of welfare recipients from Alberta and now it is on the receiving end.
I should also say that Nova Scotia has the fastest growing economy in Canada and doesn’t show any sign of slowing down. In fact it is predicted that Halifax and surrounding areas will double in population within the next 5 years or so. Construction (business and residential) is just crazy. This is due to off-shore oil and a burgening high tech industry.
The Federal Government set policy in the first place and gave control to the Provinces. Until its changed any point that you make with “who should get what” is moot.
As per seperating, as I am sure you are aware its an idea that has been tossed around but most of us don’t view it as a realistic alternative. Most Albertans love Canada, regardless of the “jealousy” that some other Canadians apparantly have of Alberta.
I’m not saying that the have nots should suffer. They should be given the opportunity to succeed. I’m asking when does it go past being an opportunity of helping out a neighbour to becoming an unreasonable drain on one part of the country to prop up another who won’t help themselves? If after years of doing things that haven’t worked the governments of those provinces don’t try to do something else then why should we keep paying?
As to separation, why not? That way the money that goes from Alberta to the poorer regions of Canada could go to help our own people in need. What makes the arbitrary markings on a map that people call, ‘Canada’, require us to send money thousands of miles away to others while people a few miles away, or right next door, go needy? And if that is the case then why don’t we send the same amount of money to places like Mexico, which is closer to me than Nfld, to people who need it even more?
If I give you a million dollars to invest, and allow you to keep the interest as payment for the work you do investing, the original capital is still fundamentally mine; you have stewardship, not ownership.
Also regardless of the attitude of some Albertans that they’re part of Canada when it benefits them, and not when it costs them.
You’re aware, of course, that the fishing policies that have been so awfully socialist, and ultimately damaging to the maritimes’ economy, come from the federal government, not the provincial governments, aren’t you?
Are there people going hungry in Calgary because the money is being sent to Newfoundland? Alberta is perfectly free to increase welfare payments, to set up soup kitchens, to build low-income housing. But you wouldn’t do that, would you, because then those ungrateful bastards from the East would move in.
hansel,
Your analogy is flawed. Your attitude towards Albertans can be given towards some of the citizens of any province in this country, including your own.
Did Ralph Klein run over your dog or something? What is with this raging hard-on you have for Alberta?
Alright to give proper perspective here. A) I’m from Ontario one of the two Provinces (The other is Alberta) that does not receive equalization payments so money goes out of our province to the have nots as well
B) My family was from Newfoundland and left there in the 60s to find better jobs and a better standard of living. SO I think I can see both sides.
Uzi you’re being narrow minded.
We are a country not merely a loose affiliation of provinces. As 8 of the 10 provinces and all three territories receive Equalization payments and all the regions receive transfer payments from the Federal Government it is a stupid Idea to tell the rest of Canada to move.
As for the economic disparity there are more factors than “they just can’t get their act together” In the Case of Newfoundland it is difficult to start any type of large non resource based business. Manufacturing for export outside of the province is practically non existent due to the great expense to ship product to the mainland (Either by Ferry or Air neither is as cheap as being able to simple truck or rail you goods a luxury most of the country has) On top of this there is an exodus of skilled workers searching for opportunity.
That doesn’t leave much to build on. Many of the Smaller towns are all but missing their young adults who have moved away for education or jobs elsewhere.
In the case of Nfld and Saskatchewan environmental disasters (Depletion of the Cod Stocks/ The Drought) have also added to their misery. Your solution is short-sighted. We have to invest this money in the hopes that down the road we can build up a structure in these provinces to make them self sustaining. It would be a major embarrassment if we allowed the rest of the country to fall by the wayside just because we want to keep our own wealth.
Imagine Alberta if the East decided it didn’t need to “waste” It’s money on a railway to BC. How long would it have been before it would have been settled? In Ontario We don’t refer to ourselves as Easterners or Ontarians we call ourselves Canadian. Maybe the Westerners or the Quebecois or Maritimers stopped being so regional minded and looked upon this country as a whole nation the better we’d be.
These payments are for Canadians from Canadians… We are one Country and while we can celebrate our diversity we must honour our identity as a Nation.
God bless Lord Stanley for giving us the one thing we can all agree on.
Well, I’m from Saskatchewan, BUT THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! 
I don’t have a hate-on for Alberta, and you’re correct that this attitude can be found everywhere in Canada. I’m offended in general by Uzi’s attitude, though: Albertans have benefitted mightily from the luck of their draw, namely their natural resources, and their complaints about the flow of transfer payments are selfishness, pure and simple. I’m offended by the implied choice that Uzi is Canadian only when it suits him. As someone else pointed out, an Albertan pulling down $40K pays the same, if not less, taxes, than a Newfie earning the same. The money supporting transfer payments isn’t coming out of his pocket more than that Newfie’s. It’s his sense of entitlement to riches he lives around, but doesn’t earn, that rubs the wrong way.