Harry Potter and Kreacher

[wei_ji]

Silly question. Can’t get it out of my mind, though. I’m sure there is a simple answer, probably explained in the book, but I’ve only seen the movie.

“Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part I.”

–In a scene at the abandoned and hidden Black home, in London, Harry seizes the Black family’s house elf, Kreacher, and questions him about the late Regulus Black’s locket, now missing. It turns out the locket has been stolen by Mundungus Fletcher (great name, J.K.). Harry sends Kreacher to fetch Mundungus, a task soon accomplished.

–Earlier Potter movies say house elves are the exclusive property of the family they serve. Kreacher confirms this in Prisoner of Azkaban by saying, when angrily admonished by Sirius Black for his pureblood ranting, “Of course master, Kreacher lives to serve the House of Black.”

My question:

With most of the Black family now dead, and the house apparently abandoned, how is it that Harry Potter has the authority to force Kreacher to answer his questions and obey his will?

Harry is not related to the Black family, but was only the godson of Sirius Black, now dead. In addition, Bellatrix Lastrange and her sister, Narcissa, are stated to be cousins of Sirius Black (by Sirius himself, interpreting a family tree painted on a wall), and are thus related to the Black family while being the bitter enemies of Harry Potter.

So, why does Kreacher feel compelled to answer Harry’s demands, even when out of “wand range” on a mission to capture Mundungus?

[PeskiPiksi]

House Elves stay with the physical house. When Sirius died, he left Harry his house (Grimmauld Place) in his will. Harry inherited Kreacher along with the house and everything in it.

[Infovore]

Because it’s understood that Sirius has “adopted” Harry and considers him a son, and I guess that’s enough for the house elf magic to function. Maybe it’s more about intent than it is about actual blood.

ETA: In the book, Dumbledore tests this by having Harry give Kreacher an order prior to going to Grimmauld Place–they wanted to make sure of exactly this: that Kreacher’s magic considered Harry to be the true master of the house, and not Bellatrix or Narcissa.

[yojimbo]

Albus Dumbledore: “Give him an order. If he has passed into your ownership, he will have to obey. If not, then we shall have to think of some other means of keeping him from his rightful mistress.”
Kreacher: “Won’t, won’t, won’t, WON’T!”
Harry Potter: “Kreacher, SHUT UP!”

House-elf

[SciFiSam]

@PeskiPiksi

House Elves stay with the physical house. When Sirius died, he left Harry his house (Grimmauld Place) in his will. Harry inherited Kreacher along with the house and everything in it.

And he’d willed Kreacher along with it, since Harry was his Godson.

[Chronos]

There’s an aspect of personal loyalty, too, above and beyond the magical loyalty to the house and family. In the books, Kreacher obeyed Harry, but was uncooperative at first, only actually helping when he learned that Harry intended to finish the work that Regulus Black (whom Kreacher still regards personally as his “real” master) started.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@PeskiPiksi

House Elves stay with the physical house. When Sirius died, he left Harry his house (Grimmauld Place) in his will. Harry inherited Kreacher along with the house and everything in it.

This is what I thought too. They are called “House Elves” and not “Family Elves”.

[Infovore]

@Drunky_Smurf

This is what I thought too. They are called “House Elves” and not “Family Elves”.

But they’re not family elves, though, because that would mean that wizarding families could never move house. I mean, think of what might happen if the Malfoys (prior to freeing Dobby) decided to trade up to an even more oversized and conspicuous manor house. Would they have to leave Dobby behind to spill all their deep dark secrets to the new owners? And if the elf remains loyal to the family even if they move house but has to remain in the old house, that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I think they’re “house elves” using “house” to mean “lineage” rather than “physical abode.”

[Chimera]

@Infovore

what might happen if the Malfoys (prior to freeing Dobby) decided to trade up to an even more oversized and conspicuous manor house. Would they have to leave Dobby behind to spill all their deep dark secrets to the new owners?

Dude. They’re the Malfoys. They’d probably just kill the House Elves on their way out.

[Eureka]

@Infovore

I think they’re “house elves” using “house” to mean “lineage” rather than “physical abode.”

I’d argue that they are “house elves” as opposed to “free elves” or “Tolkienesqe Elves”. But I’m not sure you are wrong.

[Sampiro]

@Eureka

I’d argue that they are “house elves” as opposed to “free elves” or “Tolkienesqe Elves”. But I’m not sure you are wrong.

Legolas… who must obey everything I say… GET OUT OF MY HEAD EUREKA!

[Pyper]

As an aside, I thought that Kreacher’s recounting of Regulus’ death was the saddest scene in the whole series.

[PeskiPiksi]

@Infovore

But they’re not family elves, though, because that would mean that wizarding families could never move house. I mean, think of what might happen if the Malfoys (prior to freeing Dobby) decided to trade up to an even more oversized and conspicuous manor house. Would they have to leave Dobby behind to spill all their deep dark secrets to the new owners? And if the elf remains loyal to the family even if they move house but has to remain in the old house, that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I think they’re “house elves” using “house” to mean “lineage” rather than “physical abode.”

Okay, just reread the relevant passage in Half-Blood Prince. Dumbledore explains to Harry that Sirius left the house to Harry in his will, but they’re not sure the will will override any “pure-bloods only” type enchantments that had been put on the house previously. Then Dumbledore summons Kreacher and tells Harry,

You see, if you have indeed inherited the house, you have also inherited…Kreacher.

If Harry can command Kreacher, it’s proof that he owns the house. So at least in this case, the elf does indeed belong to the actual physical house.

Certainly not the first time something Rowling wrote didn’t make sense.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Pyper

As an aside, I thought that Kreacher’s recounting of Regulus’ death was the saddest scene in the whole series.

I actually got kinda misty-eyed during that very scene. Reggie came through in the end and it makes it really easy to see why Kreacher is so loyal to him.

[running_coach]

It was mentioned early in the series that the wizarding world is rather cross-bred so Harry may be be related to the Black family somewhere along the line.

[rocking_chair]

remember when sirius told kreacher to “get out”, he was able to leave the house and go to bellatrix at the malfoys.

the house elf seems to belong to physical house and the lineage house.

in the will sirius must have done some skillful stuff to get the house and kreacher to go to harry and not bellatrix as the next black in line. sirius was disowned by his mother so how he got the house and kreacher over bellatrix is another bit of mystery.

i’m betting that sirius, no matter how much of a wild child and rule breaker, had a really good understanding of magical rules and how to use them creatively to get to the final goal.

also harry was able to tell kreacher to serve at hogwarts and had to call him to the black house when they hid out there in deathly hallows. it appears that house elves can leave the house by creative interpretation of commands and actual commands (see dobby and kreacher).

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Chronos

In the books, Kreacher obeyed Harry, but was uncooperative at first, only actually helping when he learned that Harry intended to finish the work that Regulus Black (whom Kreacher still regards personally as his “real” master) started.

From my reading, what J.K. Rowling was trying to show was that Kreacher started being loyal to Harry Potter, his new master, when Harry Potter treated him kindly - gave him the fake locket as a family heirloom. Dumbledore hints in the books that Kreacher might not have betrayed Sirius Black if Sirius wasn’t such a jerk towards Kreacher.

Kreacher obyed Sirius Black because Sirius Black was the last person representing the family name. Once Harry Potter was made Sirius’s heir, Kreacher is forced by the House Elf “enslavement” rules to obey Harry Potter even though he doesn’t really want to. (This changes when Harry does something nice for Kreacher, as mentioned in the previous paragraph.)

[wei_ji]

Very interesting information and discussion. Clearly, there IS far more in the books than is told in the movies, always a problem when a script must be so short. That’s how I got roped into reading the entire Tolkien canon after seeing one of the movies.

I’m intrigued by one comment that suggested Rowling might not have absolute control over all of these issues, or at least has not committed them to paper with sufficient clarity. It’s an author’s hazard with so much to remember: I seem to recall a famous gaff made by Shakespeare, in which he told two differing versions of how a character disappears from a play. Looks like a rewrite without thorough editing in that case–or put off a decision on which to go with and missed the cut.

I’m afraid to ask this crowd what the relationship is between Kreacher and Dobby, since there is an interesting interaction between the two when they return with Mundungus, a sort of competition, in which Dobby asserts himself as Number One. Someone is shortly (in both senses of that word) going to tell me to read the damn books.

[Mahaloth]

@wei_ji

I’m afraid to ask this crowd what the relationship is between Kreacher and Dobby, since there is an interesting interaction between the two when they return with Mundungus, a sort of competition, in which Dobby asserts himself as Number One. Someone is shortly (in both senses of that word) going to tell me to read the damn books.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Dobby shows up in the book like that. Since Dobby appeared in more books than movies(he’s only in movies 2 and 7), I think they made that early scene up just to remind the movie crowd who Dobby is.

In the books, he appears quite a bit more.

Anyway, my answer is that the scene you mention is made up.

I stand aside now and wait to be told if I’m wrong.

[Superdude]

Speaking of the Harry Potter books, a question sprang to my mind:

The Weasley family is poor, at least by pure-blood standards. Why can’t they just conjure up money or better clothes?

I’ve never seen it specifically stated that it’s either impossible or illegal.