I know there are lots of things that are really hard to swallow about Hermione being given a Time Turner in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. I’m not proposing to address those in this thread – I just want to express my disgust about a particular plot hole in the book that offends me as a writer.
Okay, so Dumbledore suggests that Hermione and Harry use her time-turner to save Sirius and Buckbeak. He makes a big hairy deal about how they must not be seen by anyone, and indeed throughout their time-shifted adventure, Hermione reacts with real panic whenever there’s a chance they might be seen.
Note that the prohibition isn’t just against trying to change the past; just being seen is enough. Moreover, it isn’t against being seen by your earlier self, or even by other people who would realize you couldn’t be there because you’re in Other Location X at that moment. No, it’s against being seen by ANYONE.
And yet, Hermione has been using this time-turner to go to two classes at once ALL YEAR. Presumably there are teachers and other students in these classes, right? What about Hermione being seen by THEM?
She hasn’t been using the time turner to alter the past, just to get some extra classtime and studying in. The only change she’s making is getting more schooling done at the expense of sleep, and really, that’s what college is all about. She’s just getting a head start.
She’s not supposed to be seen on THIS mission because she IS going to try to change history, and that is very much forbidden because … um… a wizard did it.
From Chapter 21, “Hermione’s Secret”: “Now, pay attention,” said Dumbledore, speaking very low, and very clearly. “Sirius is locked in Professor Flitwick’s office on the seventh floor. Thirteenth window from the right of the West Tower. If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight. But remember this, both ofyou: you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law – you know what is at stake… You – must – not – be – seen.”
Not “You must not get caught.” Not “You must not let Time Turners become general knowledge.”
I think “not get seen” is pretty close to “not get caught” - at this point, Dumbledore has encouraged a student to interfere with an execution ordered by the Minister of Magic; being witnessed at that would be bad, for her, and for Dumbledore independent of any issues regarding the time-turner.
Tangential nitpick. Hermione and Harry do not change history with the time turner - they affect what happens in the past, sure, but only in a way that is completely consistent with what they observed earlier (from their point of view) - it’s just not consistent with what they thought their observations meant.
Chef Troy, I think you’re misinterpreting Dumbledore’s warning. I don’t have a copy of the book at hand, but based on my memory and the quote you posted, it seems like he’s telling them they’d better not be seen because if anyone suspects that 1) they’re responsible for freeing Sirius and Buckbeak or 2) Hermione is abusing her Time Turner privileges then there’s going to be big trouble. I don’t see any indication that “don’t let anyone see you when you’re time traveling” is a standard restriction on Time Turner use.
There’d be no point warning Hermione and Harry not to change the past, as the book indicates that this isn’t even possible.
I don’t think Ms Rowling took too much trouble tying up the loose ends in her stories. (For instance, Harry conducts Quidditch trials as house captain in HP6, but no trials were ever conducted in HP1-5? Or why Dumbledore had to drink the poisoned potion to get at the Horcrux (HP6), when Voldemort obviously would have kept a loophole in case he wanted to retrieve the Horcrux himself?) Besides, there is no reason why being seen should result in disaster, unless the original Harry actually attacked Harry 2. Artemis Fowl met his younger self in one of the Fowl stories, even teamed up with him to fight the villains, with no disaster resulting. Rowling probably added the ‘you must not be seen’ bit just to make it sound more impressive.
In book 1, the trials would have been held before Harry had even heard of the game, he gets on the team in a singular unusual display of flying skill, not the normal trials.
In books 2 and 3, the team membership is stable; none of the mainstays from Year 1 had graduated out.
There’s no Quidditch at Hogwarts in book 4, the Triwizard Tournament was held instead of it.
There are trials in book 5, but Harry couldn’t attend, he was in detention. Ron won his Keeper job in a trial.
As I said in an earlier thread, you can’t deal with magic and time travel without creating a bazillion plot holes. I couldn’t get through a single chapter of any of the books if they all had to have iron clad plots.
I mean seriously, in a world where muggles are well acquainted with their relatives who are wizards it would be impossible for word not to get out. And that’s just the first chapter of the first book.
As a reader, I’ve always been able to hand-wave this stuff away, especially in regards to time travel. Experience has taught me not to think too hard about time travel plots, because they never hold up under scrutiny.
But I’m reading the first book to my daughter for the first time, and there’s a scene there that I can’t get past. After they get caught on the roof after hours, Prof. McGonnegal decides to punish Harry, Hermione, Draco and Neville by sending them into the Forbidden Forest at night to find a mortally wounded unicorn. Really? You’re gonna send a bunch of first years into the Forbidden Forest, at night? When you suspect that something more dangerous than the normal dangerous creatures is lurking in there?
The bigger problem (for me) is the utter douchebaggery Dumbledore shows in that scene.
Dumbledore: Harry, it would be great if YOU took the time turner back in time to set things right, even though < cough > if you get caught there’ll be…trouble.
(a Rational Harry): Why don’t you take it back then? I’m a 2nd year(? 3d year?) student. You’re the most powerful wizard in the world. Not only are you better equiped to handle the danger, but if I get caught, especially after the “Blow up my aunt” thing and the Dobby thing coming soon, I’m gonna lose my wand.
Craven, Douchebag Dumbledore: Oh, well…um…they’re expecting me back. I’ll…cover…for you. That’s it.
Rational Harry: Um–hey douchebag–it’s A TIME MACHINE. You can use it, spend a month in the past and come back 1 second after you left.
Dumbledork: I have to go now.
For me, since I loathe the character of Dumbledore and think the series reads better with him as an equally evil (but better with PR) wizard as Voldy, it’s not a problem–he’s trying to get his pawns to do something that he’ll grab credit for. Perfectly good villain action. But it’s still a huge plot-hole if you accept Dumbs as non-evil.
I’m sure the wizarding community has something equivalent to Obstruction of Justice, or Aiding & Abetting a Felon. Dumbledore is clearing warning the kids to be careful because they’re about to break the law.
Rowling seems to have the same view of time travel that Lost had. You can’t change history. Whatever you’re going to do has already happened, because it’s in the past, and you’re already living with the consequences whether you realize it or not.
Note also, Hermione sees herself, from behind, and doesn’t like the way her hair looks. Notice, in the next book, and movie, she pretties herself up more (notably for the Yule ball in the movie,) she’s become more aware of how people see her.
Yeah, it might have happened anyway, certainly with a back view mirror arrangement, magical or mundane. But still, seeing yourself having traveled in time is just too confusing, if you’re not expecting it. Notice, in other time travel scenarios --“Don’t panic! I’m you, from the future. Something important …” Its never cool to have you, just show up, and start fiddling with your stuff.