Has the mask fallen?

Great Debates
1

Supposedly, the leader of the UK’s largest Muslim political pressure group said the following:

“I think what we find in Western democracies is that minorities can have a great part to play,” said Mr Saeed.

“If great proportions of the population are apathetic, minority ethnic communities can become kingmakers.”

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2972279.stm)

So has the mask finally fallen? Have these groups finally become so brazen as to expose themselves for the anti-democracy movements they really are?

2

Sounds like you completely missed the point of what he was saying. The comment means that minority groups can exert a great deal of influence in a democratic system, especially if great proportions of the public are inactive. As an American, I can say this is not only true, it’s blindingly, staggeringly obvious. He’s not talking about making a Muslim king. =P

3

Good lord, these anti-democratic demons are planning to vote. Dial 911.

In what way is this different to Xian fundamentalists, the NRA, environmentalists or any other sectional interest organising their supporters to achieve their goals?

It’s not like they’re planning to overthrow the state, they just want to exercise influence through the ballot box. Good bloody luck to them, if people don’t like it they can always get off their butts and vote too.

4

It is in no way different from fundies, the NRA, environmentalist, or other anti-democracy groups who want to railroad their narrow agendas through government.

5

I’m not sure what you mean by “anti-democracy.” Environmentalists?

Democracy is all about tons of different people trying to “railroad their narrow agendas through government.” Deomcracy gives everyone a chance to do just that. (Unlike undemocratic systems, which crush the opposition, whatever it may be.) If the thing that gets pushed through is distasteful to the majority of those eligible to vote, then shame on that majority. They had their chance to oppose it, but chose not to.

Frankly, it’s a sad fact of democracy that MOST things that get done are the agendas of narrow-minded zealots. Look at the alleged “representative” Continental Congress that told England the American Colonies were seceding. How many people, exactly, did they represent? Not many. I’d wager that less than a third of the population of the colonies were strongly interested in secession. Some were against, many more were apathetic, but that majority wasn’t organized enough (or even cared enough) to stop the minority.

6

Very well. Some cites.

Eh… What groups exactly are you talking about here matey? What do you know about what they really are?

Elaborate please.

7

I’m just curious about the politics of anyone who slams the NRA and environmentalists. Kind of an extreme centrist, I guess.

As for the article, I see nothing undemocratic with someone trying to get the votes of a particular political or ethnic group, using promises to help that particular group and/or rhetoric that appeals to them.

So long as hard-won civil rights remain intact, what difference could it make? I’m concerned about some nations like Turkey who might allow a free and open vote, then have an indifferent majority stand by while an active minority votes in a fundamentalist government, who will then cancel all future elections (i.e. the “one man, one vote, one time” concept). I’m rather less worried about it happening in an established western democracy like the U.K.

8

I was not “slamming” thankyou. I was observing that in a democracy all kinds of groups organise to maximise their influence. I was curious to discover whether, that being the case, the OP condemns them also or whether it’s just Muslims doing it that is wrong in some way.

9

In the interests of democracy, they must be prevented from so doing. :wink:

10

So they want to play the game as well, and suddenly become “anti-democracists?”

11

Well, you know–it’s like the communist party back in the day … they get voted into office, and then they disband the government and install their own system.

Right.

12

I’m trying to remember my source, but I recently read an article that contended that what certain developing nations needed was something less than full democracy - as democracy without adequate safeguards might permits a bare majority or majority coalition to legally harass minority opposition.

Especially true in places with different ideas of civil rights than the West.

13

And I was referring to Dogface’s comment, thankyou.

14

And I screwed up my coding, thankyou.

15

This sounds exactly like what we have in the US. A constitution with a bill of rights.

16

Right–you need not only democracy, but legally outlined protections vs. a tyranny of the majority.

17

I’m not sure I agree with the OP, but if you want an evidentiary example one need look no farther than the sad case of Algeria. In 1989, Algeria moved to create a multiparty democratic form of government. In 1992, the Islamic Salvation Front was poised to sweep to victory on a fundamentalist platform calling for the dissolution of the democratic process!

The election was annulled, the FIS was banned, and its supporters appear to have been hunted down, dispersed, and/or placed under house arrest. Not the most shining moment in the history of representative government.