Have you ever heard of these attraction/seduction programs?

There’s the parable of the man who stands on a street corner in a fairly busy area, approaching any women he sees as attractive and asking directly “Hello. Would you like to fuck with me?”

An observer watches this for a while. He asks the man: “Don’t you get your face slapped a lot?”

And he answers: “Yes. But I also get fucked a lot.”

If I became aware that someone were trying this on me, my revenge would know no limits.

As someone who’s terrified of rejection, I’ve always wondered how some people seem totally unfazed by it. Is it because they have so much self-confidence, or is is because they have so little self-esteem?

I suspect in this case it’s a matter of dehumanization; they don’t really think of women as people, and so are indifferent to how women feel about them.

It may not be an admirable long term life path, but I would rather these guys use these programs and go get their dicks wet, than buy a gun and kill 20 people, so…eh…

Problem is, when the program doesn’t work as advertised, they may instead be more likely to start shooting than somebody who didn’t get into this crap in the first place.

Other problem is, they’re harassing large numbers of people, and possibly actually raping some, if they are following the programs.

How about they go find some techniques that build self-confidence by means other than knocking down other people’s, instead? It’s not as if there’s no such advice out there.

Pretty much this. Though as the [not so much a] joke goes you don’t pay whores for sex, you pay them to go away. I think many of the problems with these types of ‘programs’ is the men are dehumanzing the women by convincing themselves that the women are looking to trap a man to provide for them, and don’t believe in emotional investment between people. Everything is bottom line.

Best advice is improve yourself into someone you would be interested in - neat grooming standards, reasonable good health [nutritional awareness and some form of exercise] and learn to chat [present yourself as interested in what someone other than yourself has to say, learn the types of questions to ask to find out about someone elses pet interest so you can talk about something other than your personal pet interest - not every woman gives a damn about sports or hunting or fishing or whatever, learn to at least feign an interest in cooking or art or current affairs OTHER THAN POLITICS. Current affairs can be nonpolitical like the upcoming Oscars] If you find yourself in a conversation with more than one person don’t focus on a single female, converse with the cluster of people, it makes you not seem so desperate in getting laid.

I will admit, it is way easier for a woman to get laid than a man. I once pointed out to a guy who was convinced I was hitting on him at a party when I wasn’t [I was being polite and feigning an interest in bass fishing, to be honest. Yawn. But people like it, viva la difference and sometimes I get offers of fresh fish =) ] so I pointed out to him that if all I wanted was to get laid, I would not have gotten dressed up in very expensive clothing, paid for an expensive entree into a museum getting me an invite to the opening night after party and put up with really annoying mass market hors d’oeuvres [really, Costo frozen quiches, for what I paid for that ticket, dude…] I could have stayed in jeans and a tshirt and sneakers and headed to the bar nearest the main gate of Norfolk Operations Base, had my drinks and wings paid for and had my pick of young healthy physically fit guys - hm, blond, brunette, redhead … caucasion, hispanic, black, oriental … Always had a soft spot for green eyes … =)

I always made my contacts for possible boyfriends through something that was a shared interest - generally gaming [AD&D] and SF/fantasy [cons] or something similar. A bar is a terrible place to go if you want something more permanent, and I have never been into one night stands - from the health and safety issue, it is more dangerous for women to hook up with strangers than men. Unless one has a fair amount of money, you have to go to your place, or their place and I have never wanted to invite a total stranger in to my place and risk being targeted for theft or violence. Going to their place leaves one open to violence as does going to a hotel. Hence, the distrust of one night stands. If I am friends with someone, I can see how they treat their other relationships before deciding to get closer.

On a lighter note, there’s always the philosophy put forward by Donal Logue in The Tao Of Steve: Be cool, be excellent in her presence, and be gone.

That’s a good way to live. Much safer. I don’t really have a sex drive or much of an understanding of all that entails. But I’m at least more aware now than I used to be. In my early twenties I lived on my own for a couple of years and one day I was in a super happy/enthusiastic mood and this guy thought I was flirting with him and asked me out. I didn’t know anything about anything at that time, so I said yes, and then afterwards I invited him up to my apartment where I had an air mattress on the living room floor (because it was summer and right under the air conditioner was the only place I could stand to sleep). But OMG! what that guy must have been thinking! I was completely unaware of the implications or of the danger I was putting myself in. Luckily he was a gentleman and never tried anything.

The most serious thing he ever did was pound on my door and sit outside on the steps for hours after I broke up with him.

But yeah, inviting guys you don’t know up to your place alone is not a great idea.

I think that you might not be the target demographic for the “PUA” community. From what little I know about that scene (mostly watching VH1’s The Pickup Artist with my wife), they seem to focus on picking up the sort of women who frequent nightclubs, singles bars, college bars, happy hour bars, fraternity parties, Spring Break, summer beach-party towns, party vacation spots like Ibiza or Mykonos.

Basically, places where young, immature, vapid women go to hook up with young, immature, vapid meatheads (plenty of which I visited myself in my youth). Or in other words, the sort of places where one might actually find attractive women who would sleep with a guy they just met who used pickup techniques like “peacocking” or “negging”.

Now, in all fairness, I didn’t see anything in The Pickup Artist that looked particularly “rapey”. Some of it actually did seem like good advice for helping nerds come out of their shell. But there is a line where it does feel like they are implementing the tools of con artists, politicians, marketers , cult leaders and and serial killers.
Anyhow, one of the biggest indicators of lack of “value” IMHO is paying some dude to teach you how to meet women.

I pretend to myself I already have a girlfriend.

That way instead of being nervous and ‘putting on a show’, I’m confident and myself.

Alessan I have low self esteem. However, I also live by “faint heart never won fair maiden”. There have been plenty of rejections. But none really stand out or are memorable. On the other hand, there are wonderful joyous memories of times I dared and things worked out.

Defensive Indifference Life IS an RPG! I didn’t get all these D7’s for nothing!

From a bunch of guys swapping boot camp stories - one mentioned a guy who would walk into a bar and loudly announce that he wanted to f*ck TONIGHT!. Apparently he was usually successful.

The storyteller didn’t know what he said when actually talking to women, and whether he was pushy or not. But a general announcement, not aimed at anyone in particular - I can’t decide if it’s better or just louder.

Haha! Glad to know my little theory seems to work out in real life sometimes.

I suppose saying it once, loudly, saves even more time. If there happens to be someone in the room who is up for it, they’ll signal you, or whatever, and the f*cking can start even sooner. And then if no one takes the bait, start working the room, and putting in a little more effort, maybe. shrugs

Yeah…it works if you’re NBA basketball star Dikembe Mutombo.

Haha! Nice and Elegant. Who could resist such a proposal. Pay attention Pua’s.

Have you ever done sales or played sports? If you have done sales you have to learn how to handle rejection without it getting you down. It helps just realizing that often what you are selling isn’t what the person wants or may be bad timing, whatever. People good at sales or picking up people just don’t take it personally. It’s not a personal rejection, they just aren’t into you. Not everyone will be.

They talk about someone being so good they can sell ice to Eskimos, but in reality most sales people can’t. Likewise, no one I saw even pretended to be able to pick up any woman 100% of the time.

It was interesting hanging around with different people and watching their styles. One of my friends was really hot. Very good looking. He never gad to try hard. Another guy was a little plain looking, not handsome at all, but he was really funny. He could get most women to laugh.

Most of the guys were successful because they simply noticed when someone was interested in them and then they managed to have fun conversations without drooling.

I’ve only heard about the PTU movement from treads on the Dope, and never in real life, but the “players” I knew never used negging.

It’s an urban legend and as such there will always be someone who claims to have done it for real, but I doubt it.

And women who would fall for this are not the type that any self-respecting man would want anyway.

Isn’t Pua’s not respecting themselves, the point? They tend to be really insecure with low self-esteem, low empathy, and poor social skills. That’s why they need a system to tell them what to do. As an Aspie, I think that aspect of being told how to approach people would be really helpful. It’s just too bad they take it further into dehumanizing women rather than building these guys confidence up in a better way and teaching them that women are just people and not someone to be scared of. Then they wouldn’t have to knock women down or dehumanize them for a hookup.

Guys who respect themselves have enough self-confidence and other-people-awareness that they can get girls on their own.

Dude, no. Stay away from that crap. It’s misogynistic hokum at best, veering into sexual assault at worst.

Men who successfully pick up a lot of women typically have conventional good looks, loads of money, excellent social skills, or a combination of those things. There is no surefire path to obtaining any of those things in the quantities you need to be That Guy, but you can usually improve slightly on your looks and you can do a lot to develop your social skills. Read Dan Savage’s column; he doesn’t always get it right but he’s given the best advice I’ve seen for clueless guys who want to get laid: https://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=20816

Treat women as people, not conquests. If you don’t know what treating someone as a person even means, get some professional help. Learn conversational skills and how to read body language. Be interested and interesting. Develop friendships for their own sake, not as a wedge strategy to get into someone’s pants. If you start thinking about how you could manipulate someone into changing her mind about sleeping with you, stop. Move on. Find someone who’s into what you’ve got.

There’s a great episode of Bob’s Burgers featuring a character named the “Prince of Persuasia” that is a perfect parody of this stuff. His “steps”:


[li]Trap your princess:[/li] Physically corner her in a room, and eventually, in your life.
[li] Insult your princess:[/li] Insult her face, her body, her brain, her car. The lower her self-esteem, the higher your chances, bro. It’s been biologically proven, by me!
[li] Brag.[/li] Not lying, but close. Make up a story about how you single-handedly murdered a wild animal. Your story is gonna release a hormone deep inside her body called “insatia.” It makes women ovulate… for sex!
along with the following hilarious “advice”:

[li]Dress like her dad, it releases a hormone called “Moan-atonin.”[/li][li]When you get into an elevator with a woman, press a higher number than her, and then make a big deal about it.[/li][li]Push her in a lake.[/li][li]Be one of the tallest guys in the bar and brag about how long your butt crack is.[/li][li]Sing a song that you supposedly heard on the radio and then make fun of her for not knowing it.[/li][/ul]