Have you ever killed somone?

[Dr.Drake]

@Uncle_Brother_Walker

While I understand this is just an opinion poll on a website, I’d like to put my opinion here that actually asking this question of military veterans (regardless of which action they participated in and for which country) is generally considered to be quite an insensitive and tasteless question, not to mention a great breach of personal activity, for lack of a better word. Most of us consider this question an insult. And also, not a very inviting mention of things most of would rather not relive to ourselves, much less describe the actions to others or civilians whose experiences are limited to video games in lieu of real life.

This does not count in video games, WOW, RPGs, LARPing, and what not. But for those who have served, I wouldn’t advise asking this question face to face.

I’m going to get off of my soapbox now. Carry on.

I’m trying to craft a response to this without coming across as a jerk, and I am finding it difficult. Please bear with me. I’m sorry you’re insulted, but when I weigh “something most of us would rather not relive” with the other party, who is dead, “would rather not” is a weak argument.

The people who die in military action are no less dead, and no less human. That our society has complex rules allowing people to kill strangers / enemies / opponents in certain circumstances does not change this.

A code of silence allows all sorts of unsavory activities to go on unexamined. I would hope that out of respect for the dead, you would understand if some people do not wish to treat the subject as taboo. I mean, I’m not encouraging rudely asking personal questions of total strangers on any subject, but I am deeply disturbed by the idea that military service should not be questioned.

I don’t mind agreeing to disagree, but if you can explain your position so that I understand or correct me where I’ve misunderstood, I would appreciate it.

[panache45]

@Svejk_1

I’m really hoping masturbation does not count…

Oh shit! And it’s too late to change my vote.

[Esox_Lucius]

I’ve caused my share of “little deaths” (petites morts). Otherwise, no.

[dnooman]

@Svejk_1

I’m really hoping masturbation does not count…

Fear not. You didn’t kill anyone.

Your washer and dryer however, have killed billions of potential people every time you’ve done a load of socks.

This is not fair. Women kill one a month as a matter of routine. Guys can kill millions if there’s nothing on TV. Once those gametes meet though, watch out for that person.
/awful jokes

[Rigamarole]

@Omar_Little

Do we have dopers that post from prison?

I was gonna say: 3% of Dopers are cold-blooded murderers. That’s way higher than the general population. Didn’t realize this was such a rough place.

[Saint_Cad]

Killed not murdered so I picked yes.
I was the one that told the doctors to pull the plug.

[Guinastasia]

WHO TOLD YOU???

dammit!

[Namkcalb]

Dammit, the FBI is getting lazy with this thread

[Uncle_Brother_Walker]

I think **Loach **pretty much nailed what I meant.

Asking people face-to-face about how many people they’ve killed is quite rude and inappropriate. I’ve had people ask me and I never liked it.

I thought I included the disclaimer for doing this on an anonymous message board, but I guess that wasn’t quite as clear.

The people who have *died *in military action, regardless of their nationality, are still dead. I didn’t think we were talking about them. I thought we were talking about people who actually killed people during combat actions while fighting for their country. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I am a veteran. I have seen the direct results of my actions during missions. And I don’t like to talk about it, much less be asked about what I did. I did what I did because I was a soldier. Some might call it the Nurnburg defense, but I was just following orders. At some points, it was kill or be killed.

I grew up across the street from my best friend. His dad did two tours in Vietnam. On three separate occasions, I saw him experience combat flashbacks. They were pretty scary. Another friend’s dad was a Marine during Vietnam. He had quite a temper. I’m not saying what he did during his service made him an angry person when he came back, but he did have quite a temper and a short fuse. He didn’t like to talk about his time served either.

I’m not saying that military service should not be questioned. I (now a civilian) have a younger co-worker who is trying to join the army. He often asks me how he can cope with many of the aspects of military life. We discuss the whole “Billy Badass syndrome”, where some military members describe acts or training they have not participated in, but are just lies of false bravado. Along similar lines of the “Stolen Valor” act that the Supreme Court has just overruled. Which I do not agree with. I belive that any service member should not lie about any medals earned or campaigns they have participated in. I believe any service member should be able to prove and provide records stating service, participation in acts of war, and awards earned, either in school house enviroment or combat. This can be easily shown in a service record or a DD-214. Nobody should be allowed to claim what they have no right to. I am not supporting a code of silence.

The basic message was this: Please don’t walk up to somebody with prior service experience and ask this question to their face. If you want to boast a kill record on World of Warcraft, just make sure you put it in the correct frame of reference.

Pardon me if I was unclear.

**Dr. Drake: **I am not insulted. I guess I was just unclear on my statement. No harm, no foul. That’s what I get for not being more clear.

[LouisB]

There was this one guy I absolutely hated. I used to wish him dead every day. He’s dead now and I positively hope my wishes did him in.

I’m working on another one now.

[Dr.Drake]

Thanks, Uncle Brother Walker.

[Isaacedwardleibowitz]

No, but there was an incident when I was in college when I came very close to accidentally hitting two guys in the parking lot of the grocery store, and they would have died if I had hit them. If I’d stopped a second later I probably would have run over and killed them. That incident still haunts my thoughts every day and it’s part of the reason I don’t like to drive now.

[Rigamarole]

@Isaacedwardleibowitz

No, but there was an incident when I was in college when I came very close to accidentally hitting two guys in the parking lot of the grocery store, and they would have died if I had hit them. If I’d stopped a second later I probably would have run over and killed them.

You seriously believe you would have killed them by hitting them in a parking lot? What, were you going 80 MPH?

Very unlikely that you’d kill someone moving at very low speeds (~5 MPH). When you hit a (standing) person with your car they tend to go up and over the windshield rather than underneath the carriage.

[Rigamarole]

Here’s a cite BTW:

With vehicle speeds below 20 mph the probability of serious or fatal injury is less than 20%; with speeds above 35 mph, most injuries are fatal or incapacitating.

This one puts the odds even lower:

Vehicle Speed - Odds of Pedestrian Death, Source 1 -Odds of Pedestrian Death, Source 2
20 mph - 5% - 5%
30 mph - 45% -37%
40 mph - 85% -83%

So unless you were going 30 MPH+ in that parking lot, it’s extremely unlikely you would have killed someone. No need to be haunted by it.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Isaacedwardleibowitz

No, but there was an incident when I was in college when I came very close to accidentally hitting two guys in the parking lot of the grocery store, and they would have died if I had hit them. If I’d stopped a second later I probably would have run over and killed them. That incident still haunts my thoughts every day and it’s part of the reason I don’t like to drive now.

You think that’s haunting, when I was 17 I almost backed over my grandmother.

[Isaacedwardleibowitz]

@Rigamarole

You seriously believe you would have killed them by hitting them in a parking lot? What, were you going 80 MPH?

Very unlikely that you’d kill someone moving at very low speeds (~5 MPH). When you hit a (standing) person with your car they tend to go up and over the windshield rather than underneath the carriage.

I was driving for the college taxi service. We were always rushed and there was a culture of zooming around the city to make the times. I had just picked up a student from the grocery store and started zooming out of the parking lot when my co-worker’s container of takeout food fell from the dashboard. I was distracted by this and looked down to see if it spilled and next thing I know she yelled out, I hit the brakes and there were two horrified guys in front of the car. I’m not sure how fast I was going but it was enough to push the container of food off the dashboard and the impression I got from the guys in front of the car and my co-worker was that it was enough to cause horrible injury to them.

[Muffin]

@Mona_Lisa_Simpson

I h ave given the final dose of morphine to someone when I knew they were in pain and in the last hours of their life, the morphine just made the end come a few minutes quicker and a whole lot easier.

Is that killing? I would say no, but others might define it as such.

Yes, it is killing, contrary to the Criminal Code of Canada, however, the Supreme Court of Canada has carved out a “pain relief” exception for these circumstances. Your province’s Supreme Court has recently reiterated the SCC’s position on this in last month’s Carter decision, which does a very good job at setting out the law with respect to different end of life scenarios.

Carter v. Canada (Attorney General), 2012 BCSC 886, The Honourable Madam Justice Lynn Smith, “Reasons for Judgment:” The Courts of British Columbia - File Not Found , citing Sopinka J. (for the majority) in Rodriguez v. British Columbia (Attorney General), [1993] 3 SCR 519 http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1993/1993canlii75/1993canlii75.html .

[225] Since Rodriguez, it has been clear that potentially life-shortening symptom relief is permissible where the physician’s intention is to ease pain. As Sopinka J. explained (at 607):

The administration of drugs designed for pain control in dosages which the physician knows will hasten death constitutes active contribution to death by any standard. However, the distinction drawn here is one based upon intention – in the case of palliative care the intention is to ease pain, which has the effect of hastening death, while in the case of assisted suicide, the intention is undeniably to cause death. … In my view, distinctions based upon intent are important, and in fact form the basis of our criminal law. While factually the distinction may, at times, be difficult to draw, legally it is clear.

Since the medical profession is faced with end of life issues, it is pushing for clarification of the law in many jurisdictions in Canada. Justice Smith’s decision is the first one to permit active euthanasia, as differentiated from consensual passive euthanasia (a.k.a. “no heroic measures” or “pull the plug”) or pain relief. Note that she has given the Feds a year to re-draft the law, so aside from Carter herself who can be euthanized due to this decision, it is still not legal to euthanize people in Canada.

A word of advice: document the hell out of the file if you are ordered to administer pain meds that are likely accelerate a dying patient’s death. Take care to explicitly document the degree of pain that is being relieved and the dosage being administered, take care to ensure that there was an advance directive from the patient (e.g. power of attorney for personal care) authorizing pain relief despite it possibly hastening death, and take care that the physician signs the order. If some Dudley Do-Right officer or Crown gets it in his or her head that you were helping the patient along rather than helping relieve pain, or if some family member can’t accept the patient’s death, your notes could save your bacon. Obligatory Monty Python vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8mNjeuyV4 .

[dnooman]

@Isaacedwardleibowitz

I was driving for the college taxi service. We were always rushed and there was a culture of zooming around the city to make the times. I had just picked up a student from the grocery store and started zooming out of the parking lot when my co-worker’s container of takeout food fell from the dashboard. I was distracted by this and looked down to see if it spilled and next thing I know she yelled out, I hit the brakes and there were two horrified guys in front of the car. I’m not sure how fast I was going but it was enough to push the container of food off the dashboard and the impression I got from the guys in front of the car and my co-worker was that it was enough to cause horrible injury to them.

This is why BOTH drivers and pedestrians need to be paying attention when in a common area like a parking lot. Had they seen that your eyes were not on the road, they would have been smart to not try and cross your path even if they had the right of way. It irks the living shit out of me when I see people walk in front of cars without so much as a glance to see if the driver might be distracted. That’s a whole other thread though.

[jtur88]

As a citizen of a free democratic country, it is my responsibility to guide the government entrusted to me, which looks to me for advice and consent. I failed, and I hold myself personally responsible for everyone killed, allegedly on my behalf, by US action in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etctcetcetc.

[Dr.Drake]

@dnooman

This is why BOTH drivers and pedestrians need to be paying attention when in a common area like a parking lot. Had they seen that your eyes were not on the road, they would have been smart to not try and cross your path even if they had the right of way. It irks the living shit out of me when I see people walk in front of cars without so much as a glance to see if the driver might be distracted. That’s a whole other thread though.

I had a very near miss as a pedestrian and called my husband to comfort me in my grief. He asked me, “did you make eye contact with the driver?” Although I wasn’t happy with his answer at the time, he was right: that incident was 100% preventable by the pedestrian, me, even though the driver was legally 100% in the wrong.