Yeah, this IMHO.
I am still hoping that dozens of you will leap forward and say, “Yes! Counseling save our marriage!”
Right now it’s just a way to make her cry once a week.
Linky
http://marriageandfamilies.byu.edu/issues/2001/April/myths.aspx
Written by Linda Waite, the author of “The Case for Marriage.” I have not read the book, but have seen it cited often.
The thing I thought of interest was the statistic that 5 years later, most couples were still together, most had no counseling, and they were supposedly much happier.
I have no experience personally.
Hey, crying can be cathartic…Hang in there, boyo, keep going, keep fighting for your marriage and your kids.
She needs an outlet to discuss this with, but it shouldn’t be another guy. Could cause a lot of problems, especially if he is having problems in his marriage. Tell her to find a female friend, or perhaps a message board…
Why can’t her MOMO be cash? I mean, it doesn’t really work if she can just overspend her allowance. Maybe you, as a household, should say “we’re addressing our financial issues by using only cash envelopes”.
I’m uniquely qualified to answer this. I’m living it now.
- You married someone your age, out of love. If you make her feel like you’re giving or taking away, you’re no longer in a relationship of equals, you’re acting as a father figure would act with a youngster. That’s a slippery slope.
- Communication is key, but more importantly, effective communication is key. You need to BOTH be able to talk things out. Not fight, not raise voices, no interrupting. She talks in a calm voice how she feels, what’s unfair, what she wants to change in this relationship. Her feelings are valid, just as yours are. You’re adults, and for a short period of time, you must communicate like adults. You wouldn’t treat a stranger the way you treat the person you’re closest to. That’s not right. Rather that saying “I hate that you never clean the house”, say, “When the house is dirty, I’m uncomfortable, we’ve spent a lot of money on this not to take care of it.” Don’t direct the ‘fault’ at her, include her in a way to solve the problem. The house didn’t get dirty just because she didn’t clean.
- You will not be 100% happy with the end result. That’s a given. You will both need to compromise to find a solution. That means you too. If the additional expenses are $200 a month, and have been for awhile, working to incorporate that into the budget through an additional job or cutting corners somewhere else will end up with a happier wife, who’s more willing to work at the other things.
- What external factors are there? In our case, it’s became obvious the ONLY thing that wasn’t crap in our lives was our friendship. The big divide was all the grief and loss we’d had lately and how we were both coping with it differently. In both cases we needed medical help to get out of the cycle of bitter fighting.
- That said, you have a right to tell her how you feel about the ‘other men’ in her life. As her husband, you have to know that’s a line you accept her crossing.
- Getting away and having a chance to be a couple, and getting away and having a chance to have independent lives will have nothing but a positive effect.
My wife and I have been married the same length of time you have. We have 3.5 year old twins. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and my wife had a nervous breakdown. We’ve suffered the loss of pets, family members, sickness, financial hardship, unemployment. You name it, we’ve experienced it. And I think we’re past the worst of it.
Does she love you? I know you love her, but…and I certainly don’t intend to hurt your feelings…but does she really love you? This may be the root of the problem and I don’t think it can be overlooked. If she doesn’t think you’re the best thing that ever happened to her, you may have an issue that can’t be resolved by cleaning and money management.
MOMO is cash. It’s easier for her to track, she says, than a number in a register.
The remainder is “family money” and remains in our joint check & savings accounts. Taking the checkbook away and taking the debit card from her purse is an option I’ve considered but haven’t done. Anyway, that doesn’t stop a half-dozen work-around like going directly to the bank to withdraw and getting another check book from the big box on the desk.
The only uncrossable boundary is to get a different checking account. Due to the desire to trust her and the alienation it would cause, I haven’t done this.
Fortunately my marriage continues to go well, but I have pulled my personal act together (“back from the brink”) a couple of times. From what you tell me, it sounds like your wife may need some help just for herself. Not being able to keep the house clean can be a sign of depression, or of really bad time management skills. Either of them can be helped. And not being able to live within one’s means, or choosing not to, is also a problem whether a person is married or not. It could also be a reaction to stress or depression or poor organizational skills. Again, these can be helped. If she can find a different counselor just for her that might be a good thing, in addition to the marriage counselor. Maybe both of you do that, so she doesn’t feel singled out.
Also, are you sure you’re being realistic about the budgets? Under $900 a month to feed and clothe at least 2 kids plus herself? Don’t get me wrong, that definitely sounds possible, but it doesn’t sound comfortable. For just my husband and me, almost half of that probably goes for food and other grocery items, not counting any fancy dinners out. It might really grate on her if she buys household essentials and you see it as “her spending money.” Can you run a reality check with some peers? And she probably does expect to get her hair and nails done in the same way, and wear the same brands of clothes, as her peers. Asking most women to be frugal in these areas is moving her lifestyle out of the comfortable range. Not everyone really can be comfortable on one income, so I have some sympathy for the suggestions that she get a job as well.
On the other hand, she needs to stop any lying and game playing w/r/t money. If two people live on one budget, there is no room for things like kiting a check if the intent is to mislead the other. Hopefully the counselor can back you up on that one.
Best wishes for success!
If you have agreed to not discuss the problems with friends, then she needs to not cry on Mr “My marriage is in trouble too” anymore.
That reminds me of a book that our pre-marital counselor had us read: Fighting For Your Marriage. Howard Markman has been one of the leading researchers in the field of marriage and divorce for something like 20 years now.
What I like about the book is that it isn’t about how to avoid fights, it’s about how to fight without hurting your marriage or each other.
“His Needs, Her Needs” is also a good book.
This is anecdotal, but some of my parents friends used to fight all the time over money issues similar to yours. He was also about 11 years older IIRC. He took her off of all the accounts and put her on an all-cash allowance. She told me that once she got over the embarassement it was the best thing that ever happened to them. She can relax and not worry about the finances and he can predict their family spending more accurately.
I certainly don’t know the situation but the raw numbers caught my eye just thinking about it personally. My wife and I have separate accounts and we each put in $800 a week into our household account. Don’t let that scare you because this is Massachusetts with the housing prices and all but the other things should be similar. I need at least $300 a week just for me although that includes things like gas for a long commute in an SUV. I literally had over $80 a week in spending money in high school on the late 1980’s. I couldn’t do that now. Being an adult costs big money I find. I consider myself financially responsible and savvy and our low debts and excellent credit show it.
The only point to that is that your budget figures sound very, very low for a middle-class person virtually anywhere in the U.S. if they want to have what most consider to be a typical lifestyle. I realize that you can’t just create money out of thin-air and one being a SAHM doesn’t help finances but are you sure your financial views are appropriate for where you are?
Okay, you do have some…interesting things going on. My first suggestion is a book that I recently read, and it helped me a lot - “NOT “Just Friends”” by Dr. Shirley Glass, to address the issues of the emotional affairs that she’s having (and she is having them - you’ve described two here). It is a great book of advice on not just how to get through affairs, but on basic couple skills as well. That’s one of your issues, as well as the cleaning, the overspending, and your reactions to these things which are making them worse instead of helping them (you’re not the victim here - neither of you are).
You definitely have your own role in the dances that the two of you are doing. I assume your counsellor is working with both of you to find better ways of relating to each other? The bottom line, though, is how committed both of you are to working things out. She sounds like someone who has already left the marriage, but just hasn’t had the guts to end it yet. If she is committed to working it out, she has to be willing to do the work (and you do, too). On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you say both of your commitment levels are?
All right, it sounds to me like she feels there is a power imbalance, not in her favor. (For some reason people never object to a power imbalance that is in their favor.) Being a stay-at-home parent with no independent income can be a big contributing factor in that. Sounds like you need to make some kind of compromise without sacrificing your own limits–for instance you could bargain that if she won’t keep up the house to your standards at least she won’t object if you do it (or have it done), and in return you won’t question where the money goes as long as the basic bills are paid. Or whatever the two of you pound out.
It does seem kind of mean, to me, to say to someone, “Okay, we have this money. But you can’t spend it without my okay.” I know that’s not exactly how you said it, but it could be what it sounds like to her.
As far as, specifically, the tattoo, can you make it clear that you don’t like the idea of a tattoo but you do really love her, tattoo or not?
Just wanted to throw out a positive note — we’ve been on the brink, in the brink, up the creek, down the I-don’t-know-what many times during the 18 years of our marriage. And in the latest chapers it’s even scarier b/c now we have kids. Last year he was unemployed and it was hell. Yet we’re still here. I’ve even started liking him again.
Re: therapy, we tried counsellors 3 times IIRC. None of them really got to the crux of the matter, although I don’t think they hurt us. Now, my parents’ counsellor was crap - she later dated my father. Beotch.
Taking your wife’s point a little, since I’m a SAHM – it sounds like she’s somewhat powerless in this situation. You dictate how much work she should do and what her renumeration will be. What does she want out of this situation? Do you share financial goals and views on cleanliness?
I can understand feeling overwhelmed by household mess, as I often struggle with that myself; and I’ve overspent, too. I see both of those as symptoms of her unhappiness. She has to take responsibility for working on that; I don’t know what to advise you in terms of supporting her process. Can you just leave the issue of divorce aside for a while?
I’ve read that second marriages fail even more often than first – not to be rude, but you might want to ask yourself if you’ve dealt with your problems. We can’t fix other people, all we can really do is work on ourselves and be authentically present in our relationships.
I’d like to add, specifically, to this. Wife wanted a Tatoo. Had for years. In the middle of all our strife, she got one to represent a memory of a really bad time in her life. She and I went to the parlour, she got a tatoo, and you know what?
She came out the exact same person that went in. It didn’t change her into some crazed demon, satan worshiper, or Republican. On a scale from 1 to 10 for life change, a tatoo rates about a 2.25.
So much so that when I found something I could live with for the rest of my life (took three months), I went and got one too. It really, REALLY, isn’t that big a deal. It’s kinda like virginitiy: a huge thing before the event, not so much a big deal afterwards.
I got the general grocery budget from going over past check register entries. For example, two weeks ago, she boughtj what she said was two-weeks-worth of stuff from the grocery store. The bill was $270 and she said she was stocking up on some stuff, too.
School lunches are covered from the family account (because we write checks for them), milk from the milkman (yes, it delivers in Denver) is from the family account. Gas for the cars is family budget (pay at the pump is non-cash friendly). Pretty much, if she shops carefully and we don’t have steak for every meal, $300 per two-week period is about right for grocery store stuff.
The family account also covers the rent, cell phones, cable, and all that stuff. Her personal MOMO is for food, what I call “soap & crap”, and personal stuff.
This leaves her nearly $200 for discretionary spending of her original stake. Yes, I understand that clothes are expensive for women. We’re not talking about professional attire, though. We’re talking just daily wear stuff. $50 bought her two pair of jeans from Old Navy and they’re good for half a year or more.
Do you shop for clothes weekly? I assume most people do not. Even getting her nails done at $25 is easily within reach if she chooses.
The family account is also, by the way, paying for her $4500 worth of credit card debt, down from roughly $7800. This ~$250 a month is, in a way, part of her MOMO, too. Me? I have one $1500 limit card, nearly full at this time because I absorbed $500 of car expenses and $400 worth of vet bills recently. Yes, the family account pays this, too.
Many people I know would give their eyeteeth to have $100 a week for pure discretionary spending. I bought my daughter a birthday present last week, went to a movie and have had the remainder of my MOMO in my wallet ever since. I haven’t spent a dime of it. It’s not that hard if you avoid Starbucks and drink the office coffee instead. If you bag in a lunch rather than going out daily. It’s the little things that empty your wallet, not the big things in my experience. Stop feeding the kids at McDonalds and give them sandwiches at home and the money savings can be significant.
Having the MOMO, though, lets me stop at Starbucks for a triple-venti vanilla latte once a week or so and enjoy it both gastronomically but economically, too. It’s stress free if it’s in the budget. It should be the same for her. The MOMO is yours to spend how you choose, no other spouse approval needed. If I think acrylic nails are wasteful, it doesn’t matter if she pays for them out of her MOMO.
For Hilarity, the goal is to be empowering with this technique.
I was going to just post my budget sheet but it looks awful pasted from Excel. Let’s just say I have a take home of $4400 per month and the monthly expenses (gas, phone, power, pharmacy, credit cards, monthly “date”, an “emergency” $200, etc.) total $3721 a month. On review, it’s a little off from when I originally made it. I dropped Netflix but natural gas is up. It’s pretty close, still. We have unusually high pharmacy bills and own a timeshare so there’s some non-standard expenses there. We have one car payment and recently bought our other outright, even if it had to be a bit of a beater to achieve that (tapped the 401K for a loan for that). The purchase was necessary after the minivan died unexpectedly.
Anyway, if you do the math, that’s $1119 a month unaccounted for. Divide it in half per paycheck, give her the kids & grocery part, and the MOMO amounts are right there. You may think it too little but really it’s all that’s left.
Over analyzed? Maybe. But I wasn’t a penny tracker until we started having $0 in the accounts a week before payday (yes, savings account, too).
The last kited check wasn’t to mislead me, although she has in the past hidden her spending from me. When I asked her about what she spent on a shopping trip, the reported amounts were often half of what really got spent. I’d be surprised later when the checks started clearing. I now discourage check-writing (as opposed to other electronic means, ie: debit card) because checks are slow to appear in the electronic tracking of the bank.
My commitment level at this time, featherlou waxes and wanes with the day. Many times during these past weeks, I’ve given up in my emotions but I persist in my rational side. I feel spent. I out of ideas, given all I can give, done all I can do. That’s why I asked for counseling. I need somebody else’s input & ideas if I’m going to continue to fight for this.
My wife? I don’t know. Her “assignment” from the counselor was to work to at least appear to be more involved with me & the family. The next night she went over to our male friend’s house (yes, that guy) to pick something up. Left at 9:00, returned after 1:00 am. Innocent the whole time she claims. I actually believe her to a degree but I want what she’s giving him. By that, I want her time and attention. I want to feel like I’m important to her and lately I’m not feeling that - despite her words.
She says that if I ask, she’ll drop him as a friend and never see him again. I’m tempted but she’s got to decide on her own. Let her free and see if she returns and all that platitude stuff.
She’s already tattooed. She has, ummm…, six at the moment. Her most recent is a striking one across the curve of her right breast. It’s pretty big and bold (as is her breast, I guess). She wants one to match on the left. I think it’s, aesthetically, just a poor choice. They’re breasts, not bookends, and, in my opinion, she’ll look better being asymetric. That’s the disagreement.
I don’t think I dictate the cleanliness standards - at least not in some draconian manner. I do think a messy house is a chaotic house. I think a chaotic house is worse for children than an orderly house.
Most of the previous school year, the morning was the same. Kids up at 7:00. Everybody proceeds to tear around the house looking for clothes for the day. Clean clothes are mixed with dirty, upstairs and downstairs, etc. Every drawer in every kids room is empty of clothes. This is every day, five days a week.
Now it’s time for breakfast. Places have to be cleared at the table. You have to pick through the dishwasher to find a clean spoon. The kids cereal bowl sticks to the dining room table because of the old food on it.
I’m not kidding about the sink having mold in it. I’m not kidding about the floor being so dirty that your feet turn black. I get up every day and put on my shoes or sandals first thing, weekends, too. I couldn’t walk from the living room to the bedrooms without walking on clothes that were strewn from wall to wall in the hallway for an 8 foot run. Getting from my side of the bed to the master bathroom requires walking on things. I cleaned the kitchen every Saturday morning and would clean dishes & pots from dinners 4 and 5 days ago. I don’t mind clutter. I don’t mind “lived-in”. This was disgusting, though. Her own father won’t visit her here because of her housekeeping habits.
That’s why the daily cleaning woman, in my opinion, wouldn’t work. It’s just too much.
As I said earlier, though, she’s doing much better.
I do think this is her job - I have one, she has one. She’s paid in the same things I’m paid in. Shelter, food, nice television, savings account, retirement plan. It’s all hers, too.
Yes, I dictate the budget. The is the iterative solution of 10-years of trying almost everything else. I do limit myself in the same way she’s limited, though, in the interest of equity.
Belrix, you said in an earlier post that you want what the other guy is getting from her, her time and attention. This is a suggestion: what is she getting from him that you’re not giving her? Just a guess, but (1) she is getting out of an environment that’s stressful for her, (2) she is getting away from someone who’s critical of her, (3) she is getting positive attention with no pressure.
Obviously you two saw something in each other that attracted you at one time. Can you reconnect with that?
Frankly, given the presence of other men in her emotional life I see little chance of it continuing. Go back and see if you can read your posts #9 and #16 as if they were written by someone else.
How young are the children? If you are to separate, the younger the better - children are amazingly adaptable and are better off with happily separated parents than unhappily married parents (DON’T fool yourself they won’t notice there’s a problem. They will). Believe me, a happy home - or two separate happy homes - are hugely preferable to children than one unhappy one. The happiest and best adjusted young girl I know has three separate family homes (bio mother and partner-of-the-moment, bio father and partner, ex step-father - she likes him best and he’s the best parent of the three of them).
I see exactly one thing to try you haven’t mentioned, and this may or may not be practical given the age of the children. She should get a full-time (or near full-time) job. What did she do before you married and had children? Did she have a career of any sort? If so I wouldn’t mind betting it’s the loss of that that’s a big factor in this.