Have you pulled your marriage back from the brink?

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@ivylass

If his wife acknowledges there is trouble in the marriage, she needs to work WITH HIM to fix it. Spending time with TOG is time not spent on fixing what’s wrong in the marriage. It’s ignoring/refusing to deal/avoiding the problem. You’re assuming that IF she’s having an affair it’s because she’s not getting something at home. It could also be she’s a selfish bitch who likes to screw around on her husband.

We’re 100% in agreement.

But you’re denying her responsibility here. If she is fooling around, it’s Belrix’s fault for being an unfeeling cad. If he accuses her when she’s not fooling around, it’s Belrix’s fault for being an unfeeling cad.

If his wife acknowledges there is trouble in the marriage, she needs to work WITH HIM to fix it. Spending time with TOG is time not spent on fixing what’s wrong in the marriage. It’s ignoring/refusing to deal/avoiding the problem. You’re assuming that IF she’s having an affair it’s because she’s not getting something at home. It could also be she’s a selfish bitch who likes to screw around on her husband.

What I’m saying is, there needs to be a Zero Point. Where everything that’s happened before no longer matters. If they want to work this out, they’ve gotta break the cycle and start anew. Either party may come across as the ‘bad party’, but I guarantee they both feel justified in how they behave to each other.

I’m not defending her, I know less than half the story, but I DO know that they both need to stop what’s happening now and either Fix It Together, or Go Their Seperate Ways.

I’m not sure that point’s been reached yet. if it doesn’t happen, then whatever continues to occur will be seriously unfun and unhealthy.

[fessie]

@nyctea scandiaca

Anyway the theme of her perhaps feeling “powerless” has been raised several times. Well, the fact is, he who makes the money is the one with the power. Like it or not money = power. When she chose to be a SAHM, she made a choice to live this way, and to not exercise her ability to make money in the working world. If she wanted to get a job and make money to spend on frivolous stuff, she could do that, but has chosen not to.

@Kalhoun

I strongly disagree with this statement as a general rule of thumb. You say it’s her decision to stay home, but the fact is he agreed to it. But that’s beside the point. She is still part of the family and in theory has just as much right to the money as he does. Where the whole thing falls apart is that she’s not cooperating and is not being a team player. She’s not holding up her end of the bargain and is living above their means. If she were to rein in the spending and do her job, she would be entitled to whatever allotment of cash is within a healthy budget.

Um, yeah, nyctea - it doesn’t work that way. Do the math on what it would cost him to hire someone to do what she’s doing (which, admittedly, isn’t much, but still…). Marriage is about partnership, not pissing matches.

Being a SAHM is a whole buncha work, much more than you’d ever guess. Reminds me of my days in fast-food, manning the cash register — hour after hour of the same rapid-fire questions, same mundane tasks. It’s not that any of it’s a stretch, it’s that it never, ever frickin stops.

Speaking of which, they’re out the back door…

[ivylass]

@Athena

If the housecleaning is a major issue in your marriage, why in the world haven’t you hired a cleaning service? It seems obvious to me.

Yes, it’s money out the door, and yes, it should be her job if she’s a stay at home Mom. But sometimes you have to throw that kind of thinking to the wind if the greater good (your marriage) is being hampered by it.

If keeping the house clean will save your marriage, spend the $150/month (or whatever it takes - that’s around what I paid in the Boulder area 5 years ago) and get your house clean. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper than marriage therapy or divorce. And of all the personality defect a person could have, “can’t keep a clean house” is a pretty minor one.

I don’t think that’s facing the problem. It’s not that it’s a huge house, it’s that she refuses to do basic cleaning, to the point that Belrix doesn’t dare put his bare feet on floor. It’s not a healthy situation for the children, and I think we need to find out why his wife cannot or will not keep up with the basic cleaning. I mean, letting dishes and pots four and five days old sit around? I could see overnight, but nearly a week?

Unintentionally Blank, I see your point about not blaming anymore and trying to fix the problem. But for God’s sake…her counseling assignment was to spend more time with the family and the very next night she goes to see TOG and doesn’t come home until 1am? To me, that’s a big sign that she’s not interested in working on the problems.

[Zyada]

First, I want to recommend a book called “Recovering Love” by J. Richard Cookerly. This book is ostensibly for people in relationships that have drug addiction as a factor, but it is really about how to create and nurture love.

As you read this book, you may want to ask yourself how you may have stopped nurturing your marriage, and you might also ask yourself how your wife is nurturing your love for her despite her apparent rebellion. This may help with the friendship that seems to be turning into another “affair of the heart” - it may give you some insight on what she is getting for this other man that she is not getting from you.

Secondly, I recommend that you get objective details about how the house isn’t being kept clean to your standards. Then ask someone outside of the marriage who has similar experience with your situation - are your expectations reasonable or are your being a bit anal about the cleanliness? You might even go the sitcom route - take a day off and try to keep house the way you expect her to (ok, I see on review that she gets upset if you try to do it - I think there it is time to point out that you need a certain level of cleanliness to feel comfortable in your own house and if she is unable to provide it, it is unfair of her to not let you take care of yourself). If your expectations are unreasonable, you might be able to reach a more reasonable compromise. If they are reasonable and it does get down to a divorce, this may give you leverage in custody (and alimony if that is an issue).

Thirdly, look into the technique of “active listening”. This can help a lot with the “bossiness” and the Cliff Claven tendencies.

Finally - “I’m, as her husband, am supposed to have a specific role in her life. I don’t want this guy to move into that role, even if their relationship stays non-physical.”

Eradicat this type of thinking from your mind. "supposed to"s are very damaging to relationships, especially when you’ve already adopted a fairly traditional lifestyle. Determine what you want from your relationship based on your needs, not on what our culture tells us what you are supposed to need.

Have I done marital counseling? I would say that my previous marriage only survived as long as it did due to counseling - my husband had some severe emotional problems that we managed to overcome as long as we kept working on it, but when he gave up on counseling, he slipped back into old destructive behaviors.

[Belrix]

Hi, I’m back.

To those appalled by the house, it is much, much better. The kitchen floor is mopped, the countertops are clean & the table is no longer sticky. She’s still working on the laundry issue but a good portion of that was solved by taking no less than 15 trash bags of clothes to the local Goodwill (the big 33 gal bags). The kids can get dressed from their dressers in the morning.

The house is doing much better; she’s has stepped up to her responsiblity on this. 10 years of history has made me a little worried that this is a phase and she’ll revert. For now, though, and hopefully for a good while longer, she’ll remain focused on this responsibility.

Two wrap bunch of similar questions together in an answer: Before we were married, she lived with her mother - leaving college under a cloud of problems. She is a former cult member, clinically depressed (under treatment), adult ADD, etc. She’s held jobs in the past but none of the 8-5, 12 month a year type. While we’ve been together, I think her longest job as a bit under a year, working hourly at a pharmacy. Since then, there has been nothing.

We’ve tried almost all the Mary Kay/Tupperware/etc. home businesses but she seems unable to stay focused enough for these. They take a goodly amount of self-initiative for success. I have vowed “never again” on these type of home businesses.

We arrived jointly, so I believe, on her SAHM role. The decision was based on two perceived “facts”. One: We believe that kids are better raised by parents than by daycare. Two: She’s limited in income potential such that the result might be that she’s just working for daycare money. Add this to the first and SAHM is what results.

The TOG is, in fact, a friend to both of us so I do know him. He insists that nothng is happening, too. A common friend, and recent confidant, informed TOG of my worries. During a recent cookout, where he was present, he was careful to not spend much time with her. He says he respects me and doesn’t want me to be mad with him. My wife is now blaming me for alienating him from her. She’s upset she’s losing a friend. (Due to recent events beyond our control, some of her other ‘best friends’ have disappeared from our lives. TOG represents one of the few remaining.)

The fact that my confidant talked with TOG is why I’ve agreed to not discuss our marriage anymore among my small circle of friends.

Personally, I think her time spent with TOG is mostly a way to spend time away from me. I think you could replace him with her now-missing, female best friend and she’d still be out as much as she is. In my opinion, it’s mostly avoidance behavior. However, I also think TOG is good looking, horny (due to his marriage problems), so my jealous nature does worry that it’s not just all innocent.

I agree with the low-self esteem assessments. Her history with the cult, her weight problems, etc. all suggest that. My self-esteem is not exactly great either: 41, balding, overweight, low testosterone, etc. She’s expressed that she would like to return to the more vibrant, active person she used to be. To me, that smacks of wanting to recapture youth. I worry that a 41-year old stick-in-the-mud doesn’t fit into her plans. It’s probably these issues that make me worry so much about TOG.

I described, to her, that I get the impression that we’re playing chicken with the counseling. Just waiting to see who flinches first.

[ivylass]

@Belrix

She’s expressed that she would like to return to the more vibrant, active person she used to be. To me, that smacks of wanting to recapture youth. I worry that a 41-year old stick-in-the-mud doesn’t fit into her plans. It’s probably these issues that make me worry so much about TOG.

Whoa, back up a sec. You’re both unhappy with the way you are physically. Why not join a gym together, or start walking/jogging together? Being more vibrant/active does not mean recapturing youth. It means getting healthy. 41 is not old unless you let it be. (Says 39 year old ivylass who hits the gym three times a week.)

I described, to her, that I get the impression that we’re playing chicken with the counseling. Just waiting to see who flinches first.

It seems to me you’re not putting much faith in saving the marriage. If you’re not, why should she? If the counseling doesn’t work, try another counselor. If you’re just seeing who throws in the towel first, why bother with the counseling? Go straight to an attorney and get it over with.

[Cat_Whisperer]

Belrix, is your wife working on any of her issues with a counsellor herself? It sounds like she has a lot going on, and it’s not all couple stuff.

The reason I keep harping on her relationship with TOG is because, to use an analogy, the ongoing problems you are both having (the cleaning, the spending) are serious; they are like living in a house that is too small, and in the wrong location. Needs to be fixed, but can be lived with for now. If she’s in an emotional affair, that’s the house on fire. It’s the crisis that needs to be fixed before you work on any of the other issues. There isn’t any point on working on all the other issues if she’s 75% out of the marriage already (and the most common reason women have affairs is because of marital dissatisfaction).

Do you know what an emotional affair is? Your wife doesn’t have to have sex with TOG to do immense harm to your relationship. All she has to do is engage with him with her heart and mind instead of you for the harm to be done. Is she doing that? Does she cry on his shoulder instead of yours? Is he really a friend of your marriage? She has the right to have friends, of course, but she needs to watch her boundaries with them, and it doesn’t sound like she is doing that very well.

I don’t agree with not having “supposed to’s” in relationships. If you agreed to a relationship where you are emotionally intimate with each other exclusively (and that is what most people expect when they get married, even if they don’t vocalize it), then she isn’t supposed to take her emotional intimacy to other men, just like she isn’t supposed to take her sexual intimacy to other men, if that’s the deal you both agreed to.

Okay, I’ll get off my soapbox now.

[fessie]

That clean house is a wonderful positive sign - why not build on it? How can you demonstrate your gratitude for her presence in your life? Baby steps, dude! And I’m 41 too - Ivylass is right, get your butts to the gym!

Fixing this situation is going to be a whole lotta work. But I’ll bet you two things - one, you’ll face issues that will help YOU grow and improve YOUR life anyway (you can’t change her, you can only work on yourself).

And two, it’ll be a frickin frackin fruckin lot cheaper than divorce.

[Mr_Jim]

I’m glad the house has been sorted, if only for now. I grew up in absolute filth and it had a huge impact on my brothers and me. We were ashamed to bring friends over, constantly worried we were inferior to other families and we probably smelled due to clothes being mixed with dirty ones. I think it had an effect on our schoolwork in that we didn’t have a stress free zone to study in.

To this day I feel uncomfortable if things are messy because of the memories it dredges up.

[Kalhoun]

Okay, she’s made some headway. That’s great! I agree with the others that say you should work out together. There’s more than your health to gain – companionship, hot bods, and depending on where you go, you can make new friends.

What do you two do for entertainment? Do you go out to eat? Movies or plays? Outdoor events? Try to schedule a couple hours of time each week for the two of you to hang out together. Get a sitter and just unplug from all the bullshit in your lives and concentrate on loving each other.

Maybe you could ask her to put the man friend on the back burner just for a while so you two can regain your footing in your relationship. Do you think she’d go for that without being resentful?

[Athena]

@ivylass

I don’t think that’s facing the problem. It’s not that it’s a huge house, it’s that she refuses to do basic cleaning, to the point that Belrix doesn’t dare put his bare feet on floor. It’s not a healthy situation for the children, and I think we need to find out why his wife cannot or will not keep up with the basic cleaning. I mean, letting dishes and pots four and five days old sit around? I could see overnight, but nearly a week?

<shrug> I’ve learned over the years that one person’s pig sty is another person’s standard.

I still don’t see why people will happily spend lots and lots of money on counseling to figure out why they don’t have the same standards of cleanliness rather than just pay someone to clean the damn house if it’s a problem. If nothing else, get the house clean THEN figure out any mental issues or personality defects. The former takes a couple phone calls; the latter could take years.

[Marienee]

@Athena

<shrug> I’ve learned over the years that one person’s pig sty is another person’s standard.

I still don’t see why people will happily spend lots and lots of money on counseling to figure out why they don’t have the same standards of cleanliness rather than just pay someone to clean the damn house if it’s a problem. If nothing else, get the house clean THEN figure out any mental issues or personality defects. The former takes a couple phone calls; the latter could take years.

It depends. It can become a symbol, the potty into which people put all their marital shit.

My sister and brother in law decided to redo their kitchen at some point. He is a handyman kinda guy, and was entirely opposed to hiring anybody. So he ripped out the floor and the counters and the appliances. And then it stayed that way for. nearly. three. years.

They had a house with no kitchen for three years. This was inconceivable to me; I would have called a handyman and had it done, myself.

But this is a pattern with them. The first thing he did when they moved into the house was to rip the master bath apart to remodel it. It is still ripped apart, nearly two decades later. Last Christmas they decided to redo the floor in hardwoods, so there is a large pile of hardwood flooring in their living room “curing” or something. After this many yeras, at least she no longer allows him to start the destruction process without some concrete plan to complete the construction process, so he hasn’t ripped out the existing flooring.

Every time some major issue comes up in their marriage, he starts a new Remodeling Project and doesn’t finish it. All I can tell you is that it goves them something to fight about other than the Real Issue. Once the Real Issue, whatever it may be, is resolved (usually by accident) he finishes the project.

I think it’s weird as hell. But there you are, they are nearly two decades married and it seems to work for them in its own way.

[Oy]

Belrix, do the two of you interact in any way but to discuss household and family matters? Because it’s very important to keep some degree of romance in your marriage. If that means hiring a baby-sitter once a week and taking your wife on a “date,” so be it. Also, the suggestions for things like joining the gym together have been excellent. I am basing this entirely on my own experience, but I’m guessing that most wives like to feel that their husbands view the relationship as an “us” rather than a “you and me.” Working together to achieve mutual goals is a very good way of establishing that.

Right now, I’m sorry to say, my prognosis for your marriage is not good. You may still love your wife, but it sounds as if you don’t trust her at all (and with somewhat good reason). I also suspect that she no longer trusts you to provide for her what she wants, which is probably a whole lot of emotional support and sympathy (deserved or not). I’m not sure there’s any way to regain that trust on either side.

This kind of thing has to be discussed, whether within counselling or not. You really do need to find out what is going on in her mind and heart. On the plus side, showing that interest in a non-accusatory way is a very loving thing to do, and will probably win you some points with her. It may be that she will find that she can discuss things with you, and the need for the other guy will considerably lessen or evaporate entirely. Right now, I’m guessing that she’s a little afraid to talk to you, because she doesn’t want to be scolded, even (or especially) when she’s done something wrong.

The hard part for you is that you absolutely must divest yourself of the anger and make sure that these discussions don’t devolve into arguments or fights. You have to keep in mind that the purpose of these discussions is not to change her behavior, but to understand it better. There’s a good chance that she doesn’t really understand it herself, and talking it out with someone who is not being judgemental will help her to understand why she is doing what she is doing. The woman you have described here is either profoundly self-centered or profoundly unhappy, and I’m guessing it’s the latter. Until you both understand the source of that unhappiness, you’re not going to get anywhere other than the divorce court.

This whole thing will be very difficult for you, because clearly you do have a lot of anger, resentment and distrust, and probably very little outlet for it. It’s entirely possible that she too has a lot of anger, resentment and distrust, and if that’s the case, you have to find out why (your basis is pretty straightforward and out in the open; she probably realizes it and may well despise herself for being unable to exert the necessary self-control).

Maybe it can be fixed, maybe it can’t. Sometimes even people who love each other very much find that they can’t successfully live together. I’m fifty years old, and have finally realized that I am simply not suited to live with someone, no matter how much I may care for him, and for reasons not unlike your wife’s behavior - when I’m living alone, if I let things slide, at least I’m the only one who suffers and I don’t have to live with constant self-hatred. In other cases, it’s not that the people are incapable of living with someone, but there are simply insurmountable difficulties in living with each other.

[Belrix]

Sorry, but a quick drive-by response and then I’ve got to get out of here…

The problem with exercising together is the kids part. They’re too small to keep up and too young to leave alone. We must do it in shifts if both want to exercise.

The problem with babysitting & dates is that it costs money - something we have zero of right now. We’ve used to infrequently trade babysitting with two other couples but the aforementioned “events beyond our control” have nixed that.

The budget does actually include $100 per month for a “date”. The problem is that the budget is always overspent and the date has to go.

[Rilchiam]

Can you take the kids on a picnic, on the weekend?

[Velma]

The number one reason for divorce is money issues. It is not a matter of how much money you make but rather how you sit down and prioritize. Money spent = values and priorities, that is why it is so important. I am married to a man who is very smart and able to work hard, but he is also the one with adult ADHD and a “free spirit” when it comes to spending. Couple that with my part-time job and that we have a young son whom I spend 4 days out of the week with, and it can be difficult. We are kind of a different mix of your circumstances but I sympathize.

We had to sit down and together decide what our prioirites were when it comes to money. We BOTH had to agree on a budget, we both have a vote even though he earns more money than me and I am dependent on him for that. On the other hand I am better at budgeting and managing money and his credit is terrible and he is dependent on me for that reason. But the real issues lie in what our future goals and dreams are. What we spend our money on is a reflection of that.

My husband works full time (usually, he is laid off right now) and after our son was born 2 years ago I went down to part time work. I spend about $150 a week on household items - that includes everything from groceries to cleaners to diapers. That is with sales shopping and coupon clipping though, so I could easily spend $200 a week and not be totally out of control. How did you two come to your budget? Do you need to go grocery shopping yourself to see how much stuff really costs? I am just saying your budget for her is not totally unreasonable but it is not extravagant for her either. If she is coming close she is not Paris Hilton.

I can’t comment on the cleaning. I work 24-30 hours outside the home and still keep a clean house, but my husband does pitch in. I do the heavy cleaning most of the time but he doesn’t sit on his ass either when he is home. Do you pick up after yourself? Do a load of laundry when you see it needs to be done? Housework is a never ending job and I agree that the person who is home more need to do more but that does not let the other person totally off the hook either. That said, living in filth is not acceptable.

You guys need to be on the same page when it comes to values and future goals and the money will follow. May I suggest that a seperate account may not be the horrible idea you may think. My husband is ADHD and after he overdrafted thousands of dollars I set him up with his own checking account with his own debit card. I transfer money into his account each week and that is his own free spending money to do what he wants with. If he runs out it is not connected to our savings and he can’t get more without asking if he can debit from “my” checking account (I pay all the bills from my checking.) That has worked better for us since he has some freedom but not the ability to run us into financial ruin.

I feel for you, it sounds like you are in a tough spot. Keep looking for answers if it seems like she is up for it too,

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

@Belrix

Sorry, but a quick drive-by response and then I’ve got to get out of here…

The problem with exercising together is the kids part. They’re too small to keep up and too young to leave alone. We must do it in shifts if both want to exercise.

The problem with babysitting & dates is that it costs money - something we have zero of right now. We’ve used to infrequently trade babysitting with two other couples but the aforementioned “events beyond our control” have nixed that.

The budget does actually include $100 per month for a “date”. The problem is that the budget is always overspent and the date has to go.

Join the Y. Cheap, and they have daycare at no extra cost.

They also have the occasional “Parents Night Out” when for about $4/kid they will look after your kids for a few hours on Friday night.

[Maastricht]

Couldn’t you let her enroll your family for one of those family make-over programs? Like " how clean is your house" or " make over my family?"or “super nanny”? It will be exiting, and it might have a lasting impact.

[Maastricht]

Couldn’t you let her enroll your family for one of those family make-over programs? Like " how clean is your house" or “dr Phil” or "Make over my family?"or “Super Nanny”? It’s free, it will be exiting (your wife sounds like she likes exciting and she likes attention), and it might have a lasting impact.

[lorene]

My sister and her husband pulled their marriage back from the brink. He was having an emotional affair, there were other mental health issues, and things looked very, very bad for a long time. She recommended the book and website Divorce Busting. There are message boards there, and plenty of people who are going through exactly what you are.

Best of luck. FWIW, my sister and BIL have never been stronger.