[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I’m aware of the importance of oral law and Talmudic commentary in Jewish tradition, but the acceptance of that oral law as an accurate exposition or interpretation of the original intent or practices depicted in the Torah is accepted as a matter of faith, not proveable historical record.
[/QUOTE]
Right, but you don’t have any evidence a woman could be married without her consent, though. So, an oral tradition, even if it’s not documentary, still beats nothing.
I’m still unclear as to the point of all this.
Some cherrypicked parts of the OT display laws, customs and attitudes that we today find bad. So?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
I thought about moving it, but it would’ve gotten tossed over here anyway. This is GD stuff. In case anyone hasn’t read the series, however, here is the first column.
I’m aware. The Bible keeps some ancient viewpoints alive, but that’s because they speak to something within people. If Judaism hadn’t survived or Christianity hadn’t become the dominant religion in the West, I think it would have been replaced with something different but roughly equivalent on the balance.
[/QUOTE]
I am leaving but would like to address a few of the issues I see. First, my comment was in reply to the article Who Wrote the Bible. At the end of that article was the invitation to comment. I hit the button and found myself at the forum but could not find where to post my comments, so I started a thread. Sorry about that, but I didn’t know what else to do.
Second, the laws of the OT may seem kinder than those of King Hammurabi, but the OT laws are geared toward the Hebrews. The laws concerning strangers, that includes anyone who is not ‘the chosen’ are quite different. That is what I was getting at.
Third, if the bible is not the word of God, which I am certain it is not, Israel has no claim to the land they stole from the muslims! That is the other point I was trying to make. Their history is based on lie upon lie and God never gave them anything. The entire history of them gaining land, slaves, women and cattle was due to brute force and slaughter and not the hand of any god. Not much has changed except the christians have been taught to get in on the act and support those maniacs. They believe what the bible says about being blessed if you support them and cursed if you don’t. They can’t see they are being used. The other difference today with all these cultural and religious wars is the weapons mankind has. We have the potential to destroy this planet. The christians also support these wars because once again, the bible teaches them that “all these things must first come to pass and then the end will come”. To them, war, bloodshed and chaos is what will bring on the ‘rapture’. Like I said earlier, if you weren’t raised in one of the top three religions of lunacy, you don’t know how serious all this can become. All Bush had to do was use the name of God and he got all the christian support he needed with ghouls like Robertson and Hagee leading the blind while they fill their pockets. I know what I am saying. I heard all this nonsense for years until I finally had enough and walked away. The documentary Jesus Camp is just how many of the churches train their young. All mankind ever needed to know or live by was the golden rule. That would take care of every problem this world has ever faced, but the rich could not get richer and who would the rulers rule? That is all I have to say.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
I am leaving but would like to address a few of the issues I see. First, my comment was in reply to the article Who Wrote the Bible. At the end of that article was the invitation to comment. I hit the button and found myself at the forum but could not find where to post my comments, so I started a thread. Sorry about that, but I didn’t know what else to do.
Second, the laws of the OT may seem kinder than those of King Hammurabi, but the OT laws are geared toward the Hebrews. The laws concerning strangers, that includes anyone who is not ‘the chosen’ are quite different. That is what I was getting at.
Third, if the bible is not the word of God, which I am certain it is not, Israel has no claim to the land they stole from the muslims! That is the other point I was trying to make. Their history is based on lie upon lie and God never gave them anything. The entire history of them gaining land, slaves, women and cattle was due to brute force and slaughter and not the hand of any god. Not much has changed except the christians have been taught to get in on the act and support those maniacs. They believe what the bible says about being blessed if you support them and cursed if you don’t. They can’t see they are being used. The other difference today with all these cultural and religious wars is the weapons mankind has. We have the potential to destroy this planet. The christians also support these wars because once again, the bible teaches them that “all these things must first come to pass and then the end will come”. To them, war, bloodshed and chaos is what will bring on the ‘rapture’. Like I said earlier, if you weren’t raised in one of the top three religions of lunacy, you don’t know how serious all this can become. All Bush had to do was use the name of God and he got all the christian support he needed with ghouls like Robertson and Hagee leading the blind while they fill their pockets. I know what I am saying. I heard all this nonsense for years until I finally had enough and walked away. The documentary Jesus Camp is just how many of the churches train their young. All mankind ever needed to know or live by was the golden rule. That would take care of every problem this world has ever faced, but the rich could not get richer and who would the rulers rule? That is all I have to say.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, so this was some sort of Israelis = bad rant, based on the OT.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
I am leaving but would like to address a few of the issues I see.
[/quote]
What’s with this “I’m leaving” stuff? Either stay and have a discussion - maybe everybody will learn something - or else don’t. You don’t win here by having the last word, as there is rarely a last word.
That’s exactly what you were supposed to do, so don’t worry about it.
That’s an interesting point, although I wasn’t getting it from your earlier posts. If you’d actually like some reactions to the idea you should stick around.
Okay, so at least we’ve come around to your thread title. Does this make Them Evil? It’s got nothing to do with your question about the goodness or badness of the Bible, that’s for sure.
This isn’t exactly a religious extremist board, but you sound as extreme as the people you’re railing against, which doesn’t do you any credit and doesn’t advance your argument.
Oy fucking vey.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
Second, the laws of the OT may seem kinder than those of King Hammurabi, but the OT laws are geared toward the Hebrews. The laws concerning strangers, that includes anyone who is not ‘the chosen’ are quite different. That is what I was getting at.
[/quote]
First, as many people have pointed out, societies during the Bronze Age were pretty much universally barbarous by our modern standards. So?
Second, your usage of “the chosen people” is odd, to say the least. The concept is not one of special privilege, but special obligations. Non-Jews are only expected to follow the Noahide laws in order to be considered 100% righteous. In fact, using the phrase “the chosen people” as if it is meant to be a statement about how awesome we are and how not awesome you are… is a classic anti-Semitic trope. You’d probably do well to avoid that.
You are also, it seems, rather ignorant of thousands of years of Jewish tradition. From “Do not do unto others that which is abhorrent to you, the rest is commentary, go and learn it” to “He who takes a human life has destroyed the world and he who saves a human life has saved the world.”
Acting as if a Bronze Age document, in any way, shape or form represents modern reality is… wacky. To say the least. It’d be like getting upset at modern pagans because ancient pagans used their gods to justify all sorts of atrocities.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
Third, if the bible is not the word of God, which I am certain it is not, Israel has no claim to the land they stole from the muslims!
[/quote]
The ignorance inherent in this claim could fill a thread. In fact, it has filled several. Land claims and land disputes are many and varied, but no serious students of the facts contends that a biblical mandate from an omnipotent deity is the cause of property rights. Many who have actually studied the issue point to purchases of land from Turkish (and Palestinian) owners, the legal principle of Estoppal in the wake of the rejection of the Balfour Decleration and the Three Noes, etc… The issue, in a nutshell is a hell of a lot more complex than your caricature. Serious students of the situation do not rely on God or Gods to justify their positions. Religious nutjobs do. Your point?
It’s also odd that you consider one group of conquerors (“the muslims”) to be fine, and their claims to the land somehow valid even though they gained them based on “brute force” and “slaughter”. But I’m certainly not going to get into that, as this isn’t the thread for analyzing the reasons behind that sort of absurd double standard.
The fact remains that you seem to not know, well, much at all about modern Judaism in a theological or political context. You would do well to educate yourself before lashing out.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
That is the other point I was trying to make. Their history is based on lie upon lie and God never gave them anything. The entire history of them gaining land, slaves, women and cattle was due to brute force and slaughter and not the hand of any god.
[/quote]
Sorry, but if that’s the point you were trying to make, it’s hideously and rather laughably ignorant, and militant in its ignorance to boot! No shit, ancient land covenants with an omnipotent deity that speaks through burning shrubbery aren’t the basis for a modern system of jurisprudence or historical research. But if you think that makes millenia of Jewish history “based on a lie”, you obviously have no idea what Jews talk about or think about their history, or what their history is, for that matter.
I can promise you that 100% of the Jews who take the Tanakh as a collection of ‘sacred stories’ would be baffled by your bizarre assertion that their history is somehow based on “lie upon lie”.
It aint.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
Not much has changed except the christians have been taught to get in on the act and support those maniacs.
[/quote]
Clarify: you are calling both the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews “maniacs”, yes?
[QUOTE=Becky01]
They believe what the bible says about being blessed if you support them and cursed if you don’t.
They can’t see they are being used.
[/quote]
Clarify: you are calling both the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews ‘manipulators’ by deliberately designing and/or using the Tanakh to somehow control Christians and trick them into serving us, yes?
[QUOTE=Becky01]
The christians also support these wars because once again, the bible teaches them that “all these things must first come to pass and then the end will come”. To them, war, bloodshed and chaos is what will bring on the ‘rapture’.
[/quote]
:rolleyes:
Now I’m beginning to understand. Your problems may not be specifically with Jews, but that you’re painting with such an absurdly broad brush that you’re unable to differentiate 1000 BCE from 2008 CE and “some but not all Christians” from “The christians”.
Go look up the fallacies of division and composition and figure out what mistakes you’re making, please.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
Like I said earlier, if you weren’t raised in one of the top three religions of lunacy, you don’t know how serious all this can become.
[/quote]
Funny… being raised in one of those religions o’ lunacy, I remember things getting as serious as bagels and lox during Saturday morning Bible Breakfasts. And programs like NFTY which were designed to have kids having fun together (and hooking up). Maybe I missed out on all the good holy war, eh?
[QUOTE=Becky01]
All mankind ever needed to know or live by was the golden rule.
[/quote]
My irony meter has just exploded. Do you need some cites for folks in the “religions of lunacy” who preached exactly that message?
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Oy fucking vey.
First, as many people have pointed out, societies during the Bronze Age were pretty much universally barbarous by our modern standards. So?
Second, your usage of “the chosen people” is odd, to say the least. The concept is not one of special privilege, but special obligations. Non-Jews are only expected to follow the Noahide laws in order to be considered 100% righteous. In fact, using the phrase “the chosen people” as if it is meant to be a statement about how awesome we are and how not awesome you are… is a classic anti-Semitic trope. You’d probably do well to avoid that.
You are also, it seems, rather ignorant of thousands of years of Jewish tradition. From “Do not do unto others that which is abhorrent to you, the rest is commentary, go and learn it” to “He who takes a human life has destroyed the world and he who saves a human life has saved the world.”
Acting as if a Bronze Age document, in any way, shape or form represents modern reality is… wacky. To say the least. It’d be like getting upset at modern pagans because ancient pagans used their gods to justify all sorts of atrocities.
The ignorance inherent in this claim could fill a thread. In fact, it has filled several. Land claims and land disputes are many and varied, but no serious students of the facts contends that a biblical mandate from an omnipotent deity is the cause of property rights. Many who have actually studied the issue point to purchases of land from Turkish (and Palestinian) owners, the legal principle of Estoppal in the wake of the rejection of the Balfour Decleration and the Three Noes, etc… The issue, in a nutshell is a hell of a lot more complex than your caricature. Serious students of the situation do not rely on God or Gods to justify their positions. Religious nutjobs do. Your point?
It’s also odd that you consider one group of conquerors (“the muslims”) to be fine, and their claims to the land somehow valid even though they gained them based on “brute force” and “slaughter”. But I’m certainly not going to get into that, as this isn’t the thread for analyzing the reasons behind that sort of absurd double standard.
The fact remains that you seem to not know, well, much at all about modern Judaism in a theological or political context. You would do well to educate yourself before lashing out.
Sorry, but if that’s the point you were trying to make, it’s hideously and rather laughably ignorant, and militant in its ignorance to boot! No shit, ancient land covenants with an omnipotent deity that speaks through burning shrubbery aren’t the basis for a modern system of jurisprudence or historical research. But if you think that makes millenia of Jewish history “based on a lie”, you obviously have no idea what Jews talk about or think about their history, or what their history is, for that matter.
I can promise you that 100% of the Jews who take the Tanakh as a collection of ‘sacred stories’ would be baffled by your bizarre assertion that their history is somehow based on “lie upon lie”.
It aint.
Clarify: you are calling both the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews “maniacs”, yes?
Clarify: you are calling both the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews ‘manipulators’ by deliberately designing and/or using the Tanakh to somehow control Christians and trick them into serving us, yes?
:rolleyes:
Now I’m beginning to understand. Your problems may not be specifically with Jews, but that you’re painting with such an absurdly broad brush that you’re unable to differentiate 1000 BCE from 2008 CE and “some but not all Christians” from “The christians”.
Go look up the fallacies of division and composition and figure out what mistakes you’re making, please.
Funny… being raised in one of those religions o’ lunacy, I remember things getting as serious as bagels and lox during Saturday morning Bible Breakfasts. And programs like NFTY which were designed to have kids having fun together (and hooking up). Maybe I missed out on all the good holy war, eh?
My irony meter has just exploded. Do you need some cites for folks in the “religions of lunacy” who preached exactly that message?
[/QUOTE]
You are a complete imbecile and have NO idea what is going on in this world. I won’t even bother trying to address the foolishness of your empty-headed post. Go have another bagel and be the useless eater you apparently are.
Brilliant factual refutation.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Brilliant factual refutation.
[/QUOTE]
Well, she’s got you there - you are an “eater”. 
[Of course, non-eaters tend to drop dead … ]
Becky01, personal insults are NOT allowed in Great Debates, period. Do not do that again. Your last post also carried an especially strong tinge of anti-Semitism - which was noticeable elsewhere, I might add, including your thread title and the post before this one. If you actually do want to post here after all, you’ll cut that shit out instantly.
Meanwhile, this thread is going around in circles, and not particularly good circles. Maybe it’ll do better in the Pit.
[QUOTE=Becky01]
You are a complete imbecile and have NO idea what is going on in this world. I won’t even bother trying to address the foolishness of your empty-headed post. Go have another bagel and be the useless eater you apparently are.
[/QUOTE]
While reasonable people can disagree, at least he presented coherent arguments. Why are you unable to refute them?
I notice that your profile gives an email address of becky.88@cox.net. That rings some alarm bells. “88” is well known to be Neo-Nazi slang. Am I getting close to your true motives? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree.
Well, the OP has lost me now. I had no idea that she intended “evil Hebrews” to refer to modern Israelis or Jews in general (or hell, even 2nd Temple era Jews). I was reacy to agree that the laws in the Torah represented some brutal and archaic cultural attitudes which are all but impossible to defend by modern standards. However, even by the 2nd Temple period, those laws had been largely moderated and tempered by the oral traditions spoken of before, and thet certainly don’t reflect anything close to modern Jewish religious thought or Israeli political nationalism (which is largely secular).
Becky01, I gather that you more anti-religion in general than specifically antisemitic (I recognize the chip, having worn it myself when I was a younger atheist), but this kind of stridency and overstatement isn’t going to get you anywhere with theists. Trust me. I know.
And FYI, a several of the people in this thread are atheists. This board is heavy on skeptics, atheists, agnostics, liberal theists and the like. You’re not talking to a bunch of fundies.
ETA I just saw the “bagel” comment. That makes it harder to give you the benefit of the doubt on antisemitic intent.
[QUOTE=hajario]
I notice that your profile gives an email address of becky.88@cox.net. That rings some alarm bells. “88” is well known to be Neo-Nazi slang. Am I getting close to your true motives? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree.
[/QUOTE]
You know who I feel bad for? 20 year olds. For the rest of their lives, people are going to see their e-mail address and attibute evil motives. 
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Well, the OP has lost me now. I had no idea that she intended “evil Hebrews” to refer to modern Israelis or Jews in general (or hell, even 2nd Temple era Jews). I was reacy to agree that the laws in the Torah represented some brutal and archaic cultural attitudes which are all but impossible to defend by modern standards. However, even by the 2nd Temple period, those laws had been largely moderated and tempered by the oral traditions spoken of before, and thet certainly don’t reflect anything close to modern Jewish religious thought or Israeli political nationalism (which is largely secular).
Becky01, I gather that you more anti-religion in general than specifically antisemitic (I recognize the chip, having worn it myself when I was a younger atheist), but this kind of stridency and overstatement isn’t going to get you anywhere with theists. Trust me. I know.
[/QUOTE]
[Checks to make sure we are in the Pit]
I “gather” otherwise … my take: a classic old-school antisemite. That stuff about the ‘evil’ Jews manipulating the Christians is pretty consistent with your standard Jew-hatred.
Edit: saw the edit. That too.
[QUOTE=hajario]
While reasonable people can disagree, at least he presented coherent arguments. Why are you unable to refute them?
[/quote]
The ineluctable modality of my mad ninja skills, of course.
Plus as a Jew I totally control her mind via Talmud Rays.
This is true. Then again, it doesn’t help their cases if they also conflate ancient and modern Jews while alleging that Jews somehow use Christians to their own nefarious ends via trickery.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Second, your usage of “the chosen people” is odd, to say the least. The concept is not one of special privilege, but special obligations.
[/QUOTE]
You may interpret it today like that, but is that how it was originally meant?
[QUOTE=Deuteronomy 7:6]
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about you, but “above all” seems to be providing more information than just “you guys have more obligations”.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Acting as if a Bronze Age document, in any way, shape or form represents modern reality is… wacky.
[/QUOTE]
But there are people who believe this Bronze Age document is the word of God, right? Accoring to Wikipedia “The Torah (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה Translit.: torah Translated: doctrine, teaching) has been revered as the inspired word(s) of God, as it is said by tradition to have been revealed to Moses by Him”
So dismissing it as some “Bronze Age document” is very misleading, because it is being used by currently existing people, some of whom believe that it is the word of their God.
For example, you may find some ancient Greek documents that showed how evil (by modern standards) Zeus was and what evil things he wanted people to do. If someone were to condemn modern Greeks for that, that would be stupid, because modern Greeks don’t believe in Zeus.
But if modern Greeks did currently believe in Zeus, and believed that their holy books were the inspired word of Zeus, then attacking them for evil stuff in their holy books would not be out of place.
[QUOTE=hajario]
I notice that your profile gives an email address of becky.88@cox.net. That rings some alarm bells. “88” is well known to be Neo-Nazi slang. Am I getting close to your true motives? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree.
[/QUOTE]
Our Becky seems to get up in arms over all kinds of funny stuff.
[QUOTE=Malthus]
Well, she’s got you there - you are an “eater”.
[Of course, non-eaters tend to drop dead … ]
[/QUOTE]
I thought I was the eater…
[QUOTE=hajario]
I notice that your profile gives an email address of becky.88@cox.net. That rings some alarm bells. “88” is well known to be Neo-Nazi slang. Am I getting close to your true motives? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree.
[/QUOTE]
Blimey, if it is that, then all I can say is that the Neo-Nazis are a bit softer than the original kind. Imagine it:
**Nazis: **We’re going to annex Poland!
**Poland: **Really, we think that would be a bad thing…
**Nazis: **Right then! We’re leaving! And you’ll be sorry when we’re gone.
[QUOTE=Mangetout]
I thought I was the eater…
[/QUOTE]
You and bibliophage