Sure. Just tell anyone who asks that you’re “Reconstructionist”.
<ducks head>
Seriously, though, my understanding is that, even to Hassidim, if you can trace your maternal bloodline back to someone who was definately Jewish, without encountering someone who converted to some other religion, or if you yourself converted to Judaism, then you’re Jewish; non-practicing Jew, but a Jew nonetheless.
I believe there is a portion of the Lubavitch (sp?) community who go around prostletysing to folks who are Jews-by-birth, even if it was a few generations ago that any in their family were actually practising. It’s not that they want to convert non-Jews to Judaism, but want to make folks who are already Jewish (in their eyes) to be more faithful.
I had this same discussion a few years ago with my wife, a Christian. She asked if I could really consider myself Jewish since I was so clearly an agnostic. It stumped me for a while. My deciding factor was not unlike your friend who came up with the Hitler analogy. I asked myself if I would be permitted to join a restricted club if I were to give my family history.
The answer was clearly no. I decided if I am going to be grouped by others in a negative fashion for something I am perceived to be or who my people have been, then I will wear the group with pride and thumb my nose at the excluding organizations/societies.
(of course using the same logic, if I am ever considered to have gone over to the other side for marrying a Christian…)
about 20 years ago. It was Washington Square. He was appraising various people as they approached and tried to decide if there was a good chance they were Jewish before
he asked, “Hello, are you Jewish?”
He was dressed in heavy black clothes.
I responded, “Yes, Are you?”
We both laughed. My meaning was clear, I think, that I was a much a Jew as he, even though not ultra-orthodox.
Are you a Jew? is a difficult question because “Jew” can mean either a religion or an ethnicity or a culture.
My dad is Jewish and my mom a very lapsed Catholic. So when I’m asked this question I usually have to ask the questioner “in what sense Jewish?”
I am not Jewish in a religious sense, as I have never practiced the religion.
I am not Jewish under Jewish law, because my mother is not Jewish and I have never converted.
On the other hand, I am of Jewish descent.
I was exposed to the culture as a child, and although I’m not “fluent” in it, it is part of me and my heritage.
And, to borrow a phrase used earlier in this thread, I am Jewish enough for Hitler to have sent me to the gas chambers. :eek:
So… to Jews I am a gentile and to gentiles I am Jewish >sigh< :rolleyes: Do we really have to make life this complicated?
Although in a sense I don’t officially exist to orthodox and other conservative types of Judaism, most Jewish organizations and Jews do acknowledge I have some connection to them, and the Anti-Defamation League does struggle against prejudice and bias towards the “Jewish gentiles” such as myself, since we suffer from anti-semitism just like “real” Jews.
I'll be as restrained as I must be to keep this from heading into the Pit. Eve, your Jewish friend is not a friend. If you are a Jew by heritage or by conversion, a Jew by belief or by culture alone, then you are a Jew. It is a religion and a way of life. I find it HORRIFYING that a Jew would be exclusionary, when that same mindset has cost the Jews dearly over the centuries. How very sad.
As for self-hating? A Jew is defined in their own mind and their relationship with their god, not in the eyes of the Mitzvah-Mobile, or the other friend you quote here. ( These are my personal feelings, not the proscribed outlines of what defines a Jew. )
You consider yourself to be a Jew on whatever level makes your head and heart feel good. To heck with the rest of them. IMHO the only thing that truly defines a Jew is the capacity for love. If you are heartless, the religion AND the people don’t need you. Aside from that? Hey lady, live your life and enjoy your heritage !
After all, a mitzvah is a good deed.
So, is a mitzvah wagon much different that the slogan to commit random acts of kindness, except here the good deeds are not random!
Yeah, Judaism (traditionally; the Reform define it differently) is passed down maternally. If your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish, you are too. And it don’t matter one bit if every one of those mothers converted to some other religion in between - Judaism doesn’t recognize conversion out of the faith. Your father is irrelevant to this discussion, although other stuff is passed down paternally (tribal membership, which these days boils down to Kohanim (priests - descendents of Aaron), Levites, and everybody else, like yours truly). Belief and practice are also totally irrelevant.
The guys in the Mitzva tanks/Mitzvamobiles are Lubavitch chassidim. (There is a lot of variation in the attitudes and specific practices of the different groups of chassidim - they really can’t be very easily lumped.) They feel very strongly about getting non-observant Jews to become more observant. The Mitzva tanks are less ambitious - they’re just trying to get people who otherwise wouldn’t be doing a mitzva (fullfilling a commandment) to do one, adding to both that individual’s tally and that for the nation as a whole. (Note that proseletyzing (sp?) outside of the faith is strictly against the rules. According to Jewish law, you’re supposed to discourage somebody from converting, because if they do and they’re not serious and don’t keep the laws, they’re then liable for doing all this bad stuff that would have been fine if they hadn’t converted.)
Anyway, according to them (and me, FWIW), you’re Jewish, and nobody can take that away from you, whatever your beliefs are. Tell them what you want. Personally, I think that it can’t hurt; it’s not like they’re going to send you spam because they got you to light a menorah or eat matzah or whatever.
No, but some people think I am. Problem is that I have never had a Jew think I was, so it has never helped me. I think they have a secret handshake. If anybody knows it please contact me, I’d like to fool just one before I die. I had one Jewish guy that kept saying I must be from Lebanon I think because he knew I was Christian and that was all that fit the clues he had. I wanted to hit him in the nose.
Before the days of paternity tests it was always possible to question paternity. In other words, your dad may be Jewish, but is he really your biological father?
On the other hand - there’s no question when a woman gives birth that she’s the biological mother (well… no question until the invention of modern medicine and things like surrogate motherhood). So, up until the late 20th century, a Jewish mother was irrefutable proof you had Jewish blood.
Cartooniverse—She wasn’t so much a “friend” as a coworker. And she did have a very snooty, Jewier-than-thou attitude. She later moved to Israel with her husband, baby, and cat, Biff. Everytime someone gets killed over there, I nervously read the name to make sure it wasn’t her (or Biff—he was a very cute cat).
But I see her point, in a way—I’m not “Jewish” in that I don’t believe in god or the old testament or any of that, and I don’t celebrate any of the holidays or keep kosher. But I do have a culturally Jewish background.
Oh, I like the Mitzvah Tanks—mostly because they play klezmer music, which I adore. Taliban Vans—love it! Buddhist Busses? Atheist Accuras? Taoist Trucks?
Unfortunate, but true. I don’t know anyone who does this (being orthodox myself), but there are Orthodox people who have real problems with Jews who don’t match their criteria for being “Jewish.” Then again, although I am orthodox (although I and many others prefer “observant”), there are other Orthodox Jews who would not consider me Jewish enough. Why? Well, I read newspapers and magazines, I have a television and the internet in my home, etc.
But if the Baptist Brougham came tooling down my street, playing hymns over a loudspeaker and handing out glazed doughnuts and filled with Robert Mitchum lookalikes in shovel-brim hats exhorting people on the street to be more Baptisty, I would be filled with a homicidal rage.
The fact that it doesn’t bother me as much when Hasidim do it makes me worry that I have a patronizing attitude toward our Israelite brethren. Why don’t I despise them on an equal footing?
On the other hand, I LOVE the idea of the **Taoist Duesenberg!
First of all, Gila B - welcome to the board. Always great to have more frum folks here.
Eve:
Yes. Orthodox Jews believe that anyone whose ancestors (maternally…see later) are obligated by the agreements said ancestors made at Sinai, i.e., to observe the commandments of the Torah.
A bit tasteless, but the point he’s trying to make is: if anti-Semites brand you by your Judaism enough to hate and kill you for it, you might as well be getting the benefits of it too.
samclem:
As with everything in (Orthodox) Judaism, it all boils down to what the Torah says.
The determination of Jewishness through the mother is clear from Leviticus 24:10 - “And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel…” The main character in this story is the product of a mixed union, however, he is considered to be amongst the children of Israel due to his mother’s Jewishness.
