FinnAgain I think Lamia isn’t objecting to this thread, so much as warning you that anything you and Nevermore post here, will almost certainly be used against you later.
I don’t think that nevermore is a bad person, either. However, in this case, I think you have EVERY right to be angry at Caro, at least for stringing you along.
You may not want us to think she’s a bad person, but the picture painted by the two of you is not very flattering.
I wish you both success and happiness.
Used against me?
~confused~
I don’t grok, I know I’ve fucked up a bunch of things… but… ~confused~
If I’ve done something wrong, I"ll admit it and try to learn from it.
How do you see this being used against me?
Thank you very much… this is just such a strange time for me.
I worry that maybe we’ve not painted the correct picture… maybe we have and we’re both just blind, I have no idea. Damn life… ~sighs~
nevermore and Caro both say that everything just went bad because we fought so much, and maybe they’re right, maybe it is all my fault, or at least mostly. Who knows…
I don’t know why I’m clinging so much… it just sucks, that now when I could finally accept and respect what they have together, be happy to just get love and affection…
I just can’t help but think of what would happen when all the angst and annoyance was gone, if I could ever be forgiven…
but maybe that’s just a dangerous thought, maybe I should just work on finding new friends, a new apartment, a new girl to date…
Just sucks.
FinnAgain I’m not saying that you have done anything immoral. But, you have made a mistake by discussing very personal events on a public message board. There is the possibility that this information will be used to insult you in future threads (Why the hell is Finn giving relationship advice? His ex whipped him and left him for another woman!), that somebody who either knows you IRL or figures out your name and contact information will use the information to hurt you personally (Son, we just finished reading a letter we got in the mail. It was a record of you talking about your twisted lovelife. We have no son!) or professionally (Finn, it has come to my attention that you were in some sick swinger thing. That’s not the type of person we want to work for us. You’re fired).
Note that the above are in no way representative of my feelings. They are also not half as nasty as most of what could happen.
Damn… never even considered those… that’s a very good point.
Damn…
I’ve just been confused and jerked around and with no stable ground and needed some advice… maybe I have made a mistake.
I’m not ashamed of anything I’ve done, but goddamnit… you’re right.
I should be much more careful in the future, that’s for sure.
I think Lamia saw the problem only due to her past problems with Juno and Jove.
Ah, I’m not really up on board politics… and I really did need an outlet to vent and get advice… but yeah… I suppose I should be much more careful in the future.
I’m just kinda blown away right now… none of this is healthy, none of this is good, and I deserve someone who’ll appreciate me for who I am and be totally honest with me.
This is insane…
But I really appreciate all the advice I’ve gotten.
It really has helped.
Hello, nevermore. I somehow suspected that my comments about you would bring you out of lurking again, but I stand them. I just hope you don’t think I am attacking you. I’m not.
From what I have seen in this thread, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, Finn is brutally honest with himself. I have seriously winced a time or two in reading this thread, just thinking “Damn dude, you’ve got naked eyes.” But I can respect that. And I wonder why you don’t?
To try to be more clear: Why do you think that if you say that he is “just being insecure” that he would not consider that and admit it if it were true?
Why do you not only NOT trust his own perceptions of himself and his motivations, but why are you also trying to convince him that he should not trust them himself?
With what has been said about the course of events of your three’s relationship and all that, it seems he was right in his intuitions. So why do you still insist that his intuition was and is wrong?
That’s where I’m coming from.
Do you see the contradiction there?
No offense intended, but it sounds like more than trusting if you believe her when she tells you how HE feels instead of believing him when he tells you.
I don’t want to come across as ganging up on you (since Finn has already addressed this in a post of his own), but I would like to point out how extremely biased and one-sided from the viewpoint of Caro this sounds. Was he constantly poking at YOU for reassurance? That YOU wouldn’t leave? That YOU were telling the truth? If he wasn’t then I’m sorry to say you sound like the mouthpiece of Caro here. And a very apologetic one at that, since it turns out it wasn’t just his imagination. It turns out she didn’t care, she did leave, and she wasn’t telling the truth.
Could you please explain the simple logic that has told you that her perspective on these things is to be trusted entirely over his? Because I’m not seeing how it should. But that’s exactly what I mean by loyalty.
Be back later to speak with you again, Finn, and reply to your post to me. Life is intruding upon my time dammit! scowls fiercely What! Quit laughing, I’m very fierce.
FTR I have no problem with nevermore posting, or with this thread or what’s been said here. With Finn being as brutally honest as he is, I have a hard time seeing how someone could knock him down unless he agreed to it.
Although I do see your point about the future. Possibly he could ask the mods to delete this when the conversation is finished? Just a thought.
Sorry Finn, you accidentally left yourself signed in on my computer, and I’ve never remembered to log you out. So I’m going to post this under your name, I hope you will not be offended.
Just so you know, this is Carolyn speaking
I’d just like everyone to know that you are all getting a one sided story. However, I don’t really feel it’s my place to defend myself, nor do I feel like I need to. I believe in doing what makes me happy, and I’m very sorry, and have apologized profusely to Finn for doing what I need to for me to be happy.
That said, I’d really appreciate it if people who reply could not take sides and try to find a “bad guy”. While I’ve not seen him admit it here, Finn has, in numerous emails, phone conversations, and instant messages admitted to fucking up. Well, so did I. We both did.
There is no use in spreading blame. There is no use in imagining the “what ifs”
Please, do as he has asked and give Finn your sympathy and advice on how to get over a bad relationship, don’t act as if you know what’s been going on for the last 8 months, and have been privy to every aspect of this relationship.
I find it very insulting to be called controlling and manipulative when I’ve been completely open and honest with him. Yet this doesn’t come across because once again, you’re not getting the full story. And if there is a case where I’ve ever not communicated what I want, it was due to confusion. I’m young, and admittedly immature at times, and it’s not always clear to me what I want.
Also, I’d just like to lay this “Carolyn is a lesbian” theory to rest right now, because that in particular has grated on my nerves. If there is one thing that doesn’t confuse me, it’s my sexuality. I am a bisexual. I enjoy sleeping with both men and women, and find them both sexually attractive. I just happen to want to date a woman right now. This does not make me a lesbian.
And finally, nevermore is not a mouthpiece for me. It just so happens that we have almost the exact same thought processes, which Finn will testify to. However all opinions she have stated have been her opinions, and formed from her own experiences.
Once again posted by Carolyn, not Finnagain.
And with that, I’m going to log him out, and never look at this thread again.
Well, that really didn’t help your case much, Caro. Lets see if I’ve got this right:
You don’t really feel it’s your need OR place to defend yourself- but you did anyway.
You’re sorry you believe in doing what makes you happy- but not sorry enough to stop making other people unhappy while getting what you want. You just apologize a lot.
You’ve not seen him admit to fucking up here- even though he has, repeatedly.
There’s no use spreading blame- but spreading it makes you look less bad if it’s shared.
There’s no use imagining what ifs- which is good since nobody is.
Do as Finn asked and give him sympathy and advice- because we really needed permission to do that.
Don’t act as if we know what’s been going on- even though it’s been spelled out very clearly.
Don’t act as though we’ve been privy to every aspect of their relationship- because no one has, apparently, except for you.
You are not controlling and manipulative because you are open and honest- even though they don’t really cancel each other out.
If you’ve not communicated what you want it was due to confusion- and changing your mind all the time about what you want.
You’re offended at being called a lesbian- for some reason, even though no one has called you one.
nevermore is not a mouthpiece for you- even though she has been speaking for you about the relationship. (And I didn’t call her one, I said “sounds like.”)
you and nevermore just happen to have the exact same thought processes- except for the part where you want things a lot and change your mind and are confused.
And you’re never going to look at this thread again- because you just don’t mind at all when you’re not in control.
Not really. Between Finn and Nevermore I feel I’ve gotten at least two perspectives. Nor have I simply believed every word they posted.
Why not? Just who do you feel should defend you?
Have you read this thread?
I didn’t come into this thread asking “Who is the bad guy?”. I came in wondering “What happened?”. At that point, I was open to all the possibilities. The blame could lie soley with one of the three people involved, with one of three different possible pairings of those three people, with all three people, or it could be that nobody was the bad guy. My evaluation of the relationship is not based on any preconceptions.
First, I never said that Finn was without sin. People screw up sometimes.
Second, if either Finn or Nevermore has portrayed you accurately, I’d expect them to be apologizing often, regardless of whether they did anything wrong.
Nor did I come into this thread to do so.
I haven’t done so. There are numerous details I don’t know. There are numerous details I don’t know about the ducks that live in my parking lot. I am unsure of their species, diet, migration patterns etc. But, I can be sure that they are ducks.
There are events and details of the relationship I don’t know. But these are just the details that tell me what kind of duck I’m looking at. This relationship looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and there’s duck poo on my pickup truck. I can bet my bottom buck, it ain’t no armadilla.
Honest and open is not mutually exclusive with controlling and manipulative.
I do know you posted on Finn’s account without asking him first.
A few posters have said just that.
I’ve got to go back and quote the various posts where we, who you say do not have the whole story, said exactly that.
Actually, what I’ve read here has reminded of a character in one of my favorite books.
A husband has just been told that his wife is leaving.
“Why?”
“Because you can’t give her what she wants.”
“What does she want?”
“That’s just it. She’ll never know.”
You said you didn’t expect to defend yourself. That would imply you expect somebody else to do it.
Including an addictive need to be with you and please you, by oh being your mouthpiece.
Hmm, alright folks. We need times and odds!
Actually, there was at least one post asking if that might be the case.
Doc- I know it was mentioned, but asking is not the same as calling, and if Finn already stated that is not the case, why so defensive?
AveDementia I’m a bit puzzled by that as well.
Of everything in this thread, why that in particular?
There are some obvious explanations. But none of them seems likely to me.
Yeah, I think I know some of the explanations you mean, but I don’t know either. I’m still kind of wierded out by
I think the deeper connotations of that are just sinking in. Being very sorry for hurting people who love her doesn’t make her unhappy? Hmmm…
I’ve misplaced my dsm, but I’ve been think npd for a while now.
First, fucking, goddesdamnit!
Mods, please, I did NOT give her my permission to use my account.
I have no idea why she couldn’t just use a guest account.
I feel sick and violated (and I didn’t feel great to start with)
Please do not ban me.
Betray my trust, invade my privacy, post using my name rather than a guest, why on earth would I be offended?
Well at least you were considerate enough not to automatically get me banned.
A plus for effort.
Others have touched on this, that’s the good thing about the Dope, lot of fine minds around.
Did you perhaps not read where I, repeatedly, told nevermore that she could fill in any and all details that I left out?
The contradictions are also funny, but I suppose that we should all just “believe” you and “have faith” in you, mmm?
Reading comprehension sweetheart.
The first posts in this thread were telling me how best to do right by you. The latter posts aren’t about finding a bad guy.
And, no, you didn’t see me admit it here, because somehow you’ve missed dozens upon dozens of my posts where I say I’ve fucked up.
No use in spreading blame, and yet you’re spreading the blame.
Don’t worry, I have “faith” in you.
As for ‘what if’s’ I do belive that was an attempt for people to help me understand what the fuck happened, as you are not exactly coherent, logical and non-contradictory. (thanks for demonstrating that by the way)
Funny… I have an email from you, dated today, where you state that you “probably controlled” me but that you didn’t do it on purpose. You’ll pardon me that I don’t have the exact quote, as I can’t access my email from here.
And, completely open and honest?
In which reality would this be?
I take it then that you have a date and time, say, months and months ago where you told me the truth, and that you were falling out of love with me, and would need nevermore to be in your life always?
Or… how about all the times when you told me you wanted to have my children and wake up to me every day for the rest of our lives?
That was openly and honestly a bald faced lie.
But I really don’t need to pick this apart anymore, others have, and I don’t need to dirty myself with mud on this little issue.
So, you’re always open and honest, you just happen to change your mind a lot and not have any idea what you want because you’re confused.
What exactly were you open and honest about?
Because i sure as hell don’t remember a single moment when you expressed your ‘confusion’ over wanting nevermore more than me. That is, not until you told me you wanted her and not me.
And again, I’m not dirtying myself with any more mud on this one either.
Finn will not testify to that, thank you very much.
Yes, you two agree on a great deal of things, and it is oh-so-sweet that you think you two think almost exactly alike.
Talk about religion for a few hours.
Talk about epistemology.
Talk about the nature of reality.
Enjoy the honeymooon.
Because the effort required to create a guest account would have rubbed your fingers bloody.
I’d also hope that folks would’ve recognized my logical and rhetorical style without your announcing that you’d stolen the use of my account.
24 hours? 48?
Now I have to change my password.
Wonderful.
Thank you for betraying the last shred of trust I had i you.
Thank you for helping me get over you.
Thank you very much, take your time.
(and I am terrified, I assure you)
Thank you, that actually means a lot to me.
I strive very very hard to be honest, to be truthful in my dealings with the world, and able to revise my views when they’re proven wrong. I’m not perfect, and sometimes I cling to stale old ideas, but I do try my best. And yeah… I’m more than willing to admit what I’ve done wrong, and if shown something I will of course apologize for it (if I’m convinced I was in the wrong)… I’m not all that worried about fellow dopers.
I know my heart and my soul are basicaly sound.
I just fucked up big time with this relationship.
And, like mah old yiddish gramma used to say “Nobody can walk all over you unless you lie down for them first.” Guess I should work at getting Caro’s shoeprints off my back.
I might do that after saving all the text to my harddrive.
Sounds like a reasonably good idea actually.