Finn, I’ve lurked throughout this entire thread, and haven’t said anything thus far, because other Dopers have covered it far better than I could. However; I think it’s important that you bear in mind: What is being said here is being reported back to Carolyn. Whether she reads the thread or not, you can be sure nevermore is telling her what’s being said. I had actually been waiting for Carolyn to sign up as a guest; I wasn’t surprised that she “accidentally found you still logged on” at all.
Just wanted to add a few things that struck me.
One of nevermore and caro’s first actions on getting together as a couple was to declare that there is nobody else allowed in their relationship. This from the folks who spent months telling me that they’re poly (at least nevermore actually is). This from the folks who told me that having other lovers involved shouldn’t cause stress. This from the gal who told me today that even if Caro let me be with her, she wouldn’t because it would ‘cause problems’ between them and that they’re likely to ‘fight’ about it.
Irony so thick you could cut it with a breadknife.
And no, not angry at them, nevermore is at least being far smarter and less trusting than I was. I wish I’d been more cynical and jaded when Caro and I started, but it probably wouldn’t have mattered. From day one she had a foot out the door, and I should have seen it more clearly.
Just an amusing situation, that after months and months of being told that there was no reason for conflict, no reason to fight, no reason not to be happy with a third person… that if I were to be included there would be reasons for conflict and fighting and not being happy due to the presence of a third person.
First, just so my tone doesn’t come off wrong, I really do appreciate your suggestion and your attempt to help me. However.
I really don’t have any secrets or anything to hide… where I’ve made mistakes, I want to learn why so that I can fix them.
I want to be able to live a long and happy life and have a long and happy relationship with a woman who’ll appreciate what I have to offer while putting up with my flaws. I need to know what went wrong (and I’m definitely figuring that out) so that I don’t ever do it again.
And after she pulled this shit with my account, I really couldn’t care less what she thinks. Let nevermore go and report to her heart’s content. Let Caro fume and gnash her teeth over how dreadfully unfair I’m being.
They both have everything they want, and I have nothing.
I am not going to concern myself with how Caro feels about me talking to fellow Dopers.
And yeah… I was waiting for her to get a guest account too. Funny… she has a girlfriend who she wants to spend the rest of her life with (if she’s not confused or changing her mind), she’s got a long and happy future ahead of her (if she’s not confused or changing her mind), and she chooses to bother herself with me talking to some folks she’ll never, ever, meet.
0_o?
why would I need to “report” anything?
do you think she can’t read for herself?
she was linked to this thread by HIM, when he started it!
christ. I’m not the fuckin’ double agent I’m being made out to be, here, and I wish these insinuations that I’m her “mouthpiece” or her spy would just stop. I’m in love with the girl, but I don’t fuckin’ work for her.
Pretty plain English.
I am sorry nevermore
Sorry it had to go down like this.
Sorry that you feel people think poorly of you.
Sorry if I’ve given people the impression that you are a bad person.
If I have I apologize, and I have certainly tried to set the record straight.
Goddess knows that I didn’t want this to turn into a meele.
For whatever it’s worth nevermore I don’t think people are attacking you, just pointing out that since Caro is intersted in this thread she might ask and/or you might tell her things of interest. As for being her mouthpiece, I don’t think people have accused you of being a ‘sock’ for her. Just, as I have done a great many times to your face, suggested that you are taking her side almost completely.
I’d still like things to be civil and friendly, although I am dreading coming back to my computer to find a bunch of emails that I did not send or posts in my live journal that I did not make. I spent a bit of time surfing the web when I visited her, and I have no idea how many places I accidently kept myself logged on.
I apologize if I’m being dense… but I do not see how her not coming back to this thread because it’s upsetting to her means that I am reporting to her…???
No, nevermore, I wasn’t attacking you, and I do apologize if I came off as doing so. However, I think it would be naive for Finn to not think that, considering how much of your relationship is posted here, you would be keeping Carolyn appraised of what’s being said.
I’m actually speaking from experience here, as I’ve been on the other end of it.
alright… I understand how your experience would lead you to that conclusion.
I don’t suppose anyone will take me at my word when I say that isn’t the situation, and she’s actually been reading it of her own accord, because then she’s probably just telling me to say that.
ah well.
Whoa. :eek:
She’s a real piece of work (Carolyn, I mean).
Finnagain, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. I don’t think the mods will ban you, but you should definitely ask for this thread to be closed.
nevermore, to put it bluntly-you could do a lot better. If this is how she treats people, I fear that you’re in for a lot of heart break down the road.
Oh, and if Caro is “young and immature” and “doesn’t know what she wants”, then she’s better off taking time off by herself rather than messing with people’s hearts.
She turned me into a snake!
I got better.
In my experience, Finn, there are two groups of people who say they don’t have to justify their actions: the ones who have done nothing questionable, and the ones who know their actions are inexcusable. The ones who feel the need to throw it into a conversation where nobody has asked for an explanation pretty much always fall into the latter category. And when receiving apologies, it’s good to keep in mind that “I’m sorry you feel bad” is not at all the same thing as “I’m sorry I treated you badly.” Make of that whatever you will.
I have to agree with nevermore that saying you fought about the threesome is something of a cop-out. The threesome was just the handiest bone to pick about the issues in your relationship. Most arguments have two causes, the surface issue (eg., you didn’t get me flowers for Valentines) and the real issue (I don’t feel special and important to you). The threesome being your handiest surface issue does NOT mean it was the big problem in your relationship.
And I have to agree with Guin about both of you being able to do a lot better. The way someone treated their ex is generally the way they’re going to treat you, and that doesn’t seem to bode well for this new relationship. Raven, like I said in your previous thread, you deserve a lot better than this.
Mmmm.
No, I suppose not.
But… It seems that most of her feelings and attitudes towards me were manifest in it.
Many symptoms brought to light.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong.
nevermore doesn’t like her name being mentioned… it was my own stupid mistake that I posted and mentioned that before.
And thanks, I’m just blown away.
I’ve spent the night unable to sleep and shivering in my bed.
This is just unreal.
All I ever wanted was to love and be loved, to feel safe and secure in a commited relationship.
Hell, all I ever wanted was to get over my issues and make Carolyn happy.
Fuck, all I wanted after she left me was to find a way to still make her happy and/or find a way to be happy on my own. To either get over her or find out a way that I could still be good for her and be with her.
And now all of this…
The Gods know I fucked up, probably on a range of issues…
But this is just insane.
I still can’t help but remember the good times, remember how much I cared and wanted her to be happy. But I guess all the love and warmth in the world really doesn’t matter when you get down to it.
This is just insane.
Maybe I should… but damnit, this has been my one refuge, my one place to get good, objective advice.
My one place to sort things out with smart folks who’ve been through similar circumstances.
When things were at their darkest and I had no idea what to do, Dopers (and yes, nevermore) have helped me to see things a bit clearer, to get a bit of light and clarity out of this shadow-storm.
I don’t want to have to give up posting on this yet, it’s just not fair.
Carolyn has everything she wants. She’s been in control and has gotten exactly what she intended to get… and she needs to be upset by this thread?
For fuck’s sake… just don’t read it.
Enjoy your girlfriend, talk about the future and getting a house together, but damnit leave me to my posting habits and the message board I frequent and the ability to vent a bit.
Yeah… that strikes me now.
You just don’t play games with peoples’ hearts.
You don’t just ‘see what happens’ when you’re promising someone forever.
Hell, you don’t promise someone forever if it’s just a fantasy somewhere in your mind.
Gods, and I can’t help but still blame myself.
That I should have been more accepting, that I shouldn’t have been clinging, that I should’ve been better to her… but none of it really matters in the end.
What an absolutely horrible way for things to go down.
No, I believe you. I’m just not understanding why she’s reading it of her own accord after saying she’s never gracing us with her presence again.
FTR, my experience is not either of yours, but Carolyn’s. So I can pretty much see where she’s coming from and what her reactions are. I don’t condone any of her actions or excuse them, but I do understand them. I will say this:
Finn, I don’t believe she ever truly meant to hurt you. I think she felt pressured and trapped, and this seemed the easiest expedient to stop feeling that way. She honestly did not think about the consequences because it’s unpleasant to think she hurt someone that deeply, and she does not want to believe she is capable of doing that.
nevermore, I think you will find things will be better if you make Carolyn aware of your personal boundaries; what you will and will not do, and then stick to those boundaries. Otherwise, there won’t be any respect there, and I don’t believe she’s able to be with anyone she has no respect for. Be willing to stand up for yourself.
Carolyn, if you are reading this, I’m sure you think I can’t possibly know what I’m talking about as I’m not in the situation and there’s no way I can know what you are all feeling or thinking. And when it comes to specifics, you’re right. I don’t. But I can probably give you a fairly accurate assessment.
People tend to do things for you. Without your even asking, just to be nice.
You are able to make people see your point of view and get them to agree with you.
People believe what you tell them, even if it isn’t always the exact truth.
You feel alone and misunderstood a lot of the time, and you don’t think people see the person behind the looks.
I could go on, but I imagine you don’t really want to hear anymore.
Finn, I hope you’re able to heal quickly.
Maureen Your assessment of things is very to close to mine.
Nevermore I’m not accusing you of being a spy, or acting as pr agent. But, I do think you see it as your duty to defend Carolyn and her viewpoint. This is natural. I would think you a bad person if you didn’t feel that way. However, I believe that due to the power Carolyn has over, by your own admission, you are likely saying what you have been told to say.
I don’t think Carolyn is a bad person. She is unsure of what she wants, and has other issues as well. But, I don’t think she ever set out to hurt anybody, and that she doesn’t deliberately control others through preplanned devices. She controls them both by force of personality, and needs to be in control (often without realizing it) because of her personality.
(The you in the following analogy is meant to be the generic you, rather than referring to a specific person) Carolyn doesn’t turn on four lights, and poke you with a cattle prod until you agree with her that there are five lights.
She turns on four lights, and looks at you while weeping. In complete honesty, she says ‘If you really love me, there are five lights.’ She isn’t making you jump through hoops just to show her control. She worries that you don’t love her. If you say that there are five lights, then she knows that you really do. You will later accept that reasoning yourself and change it to ‘I really do love Carolyn. Therefore, there must be five lights.’
Naturally if the subject comes up in a thread you will, without any prompting from Carolyn, post to inform us that there are five lights.
Hopefully, the posters in this read are familiar enough with Star Trek to get the reference. Before any one objects, I am not comparing Carolyn to a Cardassian torturer. I see her as the Cardassian’s daughter. She can make her father do almost anything, simply be honestly expressing joy or sorrow.
I thank everybody for the help, I’m doing a bit better.
I am so sorry for any ounce of hurt I caused to either of the girls. I really did try my best, and I am sorry if I was insecure at points, although, no, I don’t think it was all insecurity. I just don’t know anymore. I’ve just been hurting and confused and trying to get my life back together.
And I hate that this has been so freaking much under-my-skin.
**I never wanted anybody to think that either of them was a bad person,**although I know that I’ve been willing to run with the idea that I was fucked over, partially because it made me feel better.
And even though Carolyn has posted something publically on her online-journal in order to hurt me as badly as possible, I forgive everything…
this has just been a hell of a time, and now the only thing left to do is heal and move on.
No reconciliation, no friendship. Just my life and my future.
What a damn shame.
I do kinda feel like Pickard though…
“There.
are.
FOUR.
lights!!!”
But maybe that’s just a defense mechanism.
God knows we all fucked up, and that the guilt of having hurt someone I care, or cared, about so deeply is very hard to deal with.
I know Caro never meant to hurt me. I know she never meant to lead me on. I know that she was confused and unsure and did the best she could. I know that if there was a way she didn’t have to cause me all this pain she wouldn’t taken it.
All a mess, what stupid apes we are.
I am sorry she felt that she was never good enough because of my insecurities. I told her as often as I could that she’s a goddess, that she’s amazing.
I don’t think I did anything that wrong, I don’t think any of us did anything that wrong. It’s just over, maybe it could have worked, maybe not, doesn’t matter.
I wish them well.
I wish her and nevermore all the happiness and sucess in the world. I hope that they get to be a couple of sixty year old women with a house full of cats and dogs.
…and lizards. don’t forget the lizards. 
well said, Finn. I think you’ve come to the best conclusion possible, and I think you’ve found the road to recovery after wandering a long while in the woods beside it. thanks for your wishes; I wish you the best as well and I hope we can always be close.
And that’s what I’m trying to tell you, really. There was nothing you could have done. Nothing. It sounds as if the two of you had trust issues from the beginning. No matter what you did to prove yourself, there would be another hurdle the next day. After a while you would have had to give up from exhaustion. And then she would be able to say “See? I knew I couldn’t trust you. Look at how you let me down.”
FTR, I don’t think Carolyn is a bad person, either. I just see the road she has set for herself, and am shuddering back from it, as going through it once was more than enough. It’s self defeating and painful and lonely.
I don’t know if this will help you at all, but I think she will eventually grow out of this. It’s going to take a lot of self discipline, and it isn’t going to happen until people stop handing her everything without her having to work for it. But if she’s as smart as you say she is, eventually she’s going to figure out that SHE is the one that is alienating everyone from her. Not the other way around.
Jesus, what a trainwreck. FinnAgain, I’ll repeat the advice I gave back on page 2 – stop fighting battles that are now, frankly, irrelevant. You were in a (complicated) relationship and you got hurt. Wallowing in all the ways things didn’t turn out the way you expected isn’t going to help you heal.
To everyone else, I’d hestitate to draw too many assumptions from the information given here. There’s no way to get an accurate picture from someone who has just been dumped. Carolyn may have been just as controlling and manipulative as some of your exes, or she may have just been a young woman who thought she knew what she wanted from the relationship and found out she was wrong. Helping FinnAgain pick apart all the ways she was awful to him isn’t really helping anyone, in my opinion.