Harsh words from somebody with an Established Church…
Loosely put, in America there are many people who would like to see their particular brand of faith in more control, so there are strong controls in order to protect the neutrality of the system.
In the UK, technically speaking our head of state is the Defender of the Faith and all that general business, but we’re considerably less bothered about our particular faiths being in control. It’s like the monarchy; theoretically, the CofE has a lot of power and say; practically, if ever they attempted to use it, amendments to the law would quickly be made. And the same for those issues of having *less *power, mostly concerned with what anti-Catholic legislation is still on the books somewhere.
I can’t believe this thread is still going…
OK, I see, so you think we should treat muslims generally the same way we treated Germans during WWII? Is that the extent of how much scrutiny we should apply to muslims? Do you think WWII is a similiar situation to what we are encountering today?
So you are saying that going to one of these mosques is deserving of special scrutiny? I don’t know if I feel comfortable with that but if I did, then I would have to ask, then why is the first filter ALL MUSLIMS? Why isn’t the first filter the identified mosques? If we can narrow the search beyond “muslim” to muslims that attend mosques presided by blind radical shiekhs then why would we spend all that extra energy going after the cafeteria muslims?
You think they started with 1200 mosques and started a process of elimination? You don’t think they followed radicals to mosques and THEN took a look at the mosques that radicals went to?
Why would you want to look at 2.5 million people when you can look just at the folks who correspond and associate with known radicals? How many FBI agents do you think we have that we can investigate 2.5 million people?
In the last 30 years or so, almost every domestic terrorist (that isn’t a muslim) has been a conservative white guy. Any chance we should investigate all conservative white guys? What do they have to hide, just answer a few questions, interview a few of their neighbors, their bosses, etc. If it will keep our little league soccer fields safe from anthrax and fertilizer bombs, isn’t it worth it?
Of course, I don’t drive while drunk although it might be inconvenient for me to do so.
Let me ask you another question, if the death penalty deterred crime but we occasionally killed innocent people (about one innocent person killed per 10 murders prevented), would you be OK with it? What if the system is set up so that the innocent person that was executed was almost always going to be a redhead?
You tell me SPECIFICALLY what you would do about the Muslim menace and I will tell you specifically why you are a racist a bigot, a coward or a fool. But if you are only going to tell me some general theories about what you would do then I will tell you generally that you are a racist, a bigot, a coward and a fool.
I would think that some combination of the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments might be the basis for some of the concerns. This isn’t foolish political correctness, this is concern over the nature of our democracy.
Why wouldn’t you use less dubious filters first, why go after one that is protected by the first amendment as the initial filter?
It is a defining characteristic that is protected by the first amendment. There are other strains of radicalism that have generated domestic terrorism, frequently associated with fundamentalist Christianity or conservative right wing thought or even second amendment rights. In fact a large percentage of these folks have been NRA members, there are only 4 million of those, perhaps we can put THEM under a microscope?
In America, profiling has been deemed unconstitutional to profile based on race and I imagine that considering the special place in the bill of rights for religion, it would be unconstitutional to profile based on religion as well.
Its not an ideology, its a religion. Magellan is saying that we should look for people with that ideology by scrutinizing everyone of a certain religion. Its a l,ot like saying that we should scrutinze Italian people generally for connection with organized crime.
Yes its much like the Arizona law regarding illegal aliens in that sense. The letter of the law is wrong for all sorts of other reasons but the implementation of the law is wrong because it is racist.
YEAH!!! That’s right, he’s “one of the good ones”
Or get to grow up in a society that values the sort of freedom and tolerance that we value so much in this country but which the radicals seem to be so uncomfortable with.
Freedom of religion. You are proposing discrimination based on religion.
Yeah, its the same reason we do not persecute people based on their religion in the states.
Well, the Italian-Mafia connection is lible to raise hackles, but I am sure that magellan01 would heartily endorse being wary of anyone with Right-wing political leanings so as to prevent another Alfred P. Murrah Building attack.
But according to Valteron, there are no good Muslims. Therefore, the only reason this guy foiled that one terrorist attack must be so he can lull us into a false sense of security while plotting something much, much worse. And even magellan has fallen for it! Clearly these Muslims are a tricky bunch.
Whilst I am certainly in disagreement with Valteron, when he is openly mocking people for assuming he thinks each and every Muslim is bad, and openly saying “No, in fact, I don’t think that” in several posts, I think it might well be a good idea to drop that particular accusation.
We know with near enough 100% certainty that there is a minority section of the muslim population - let’s call them the FFA, or Fuckwits For Allah - who definitely do want to blow the shit out of people and things, and generally cause as much mayhem as possible. If the muslim community is going to get upset that the wider community wants to investigate some of its members as potential threats to society at large, they need to start establishing a bit of order themselves. If muslims are doing “Stop The Terrorism” rallies, they are not being very well publicised.
We know with near enough 100% certainty that there is a minority section of the fundamentalist christian population - let’s call the the FFA, or Fuckwits for the Almighty - who definitely do want to blow the shit out of people and things, and generally cause as much mayhem as possible. If the christian community is going to get upset tha that the wider community wants to investigate some of its members as potential threats to society at large, they need to start establishing a bit of order themselves. If christians are doing “Stop The Killing of Doctors” rallies, they are not being very weel publicised.
Are you even listening to yourself, you bigoted jerk?
My God. Seriously?
Did you know that several of the Muslim terorrists you’re all in a twist over used forums and messageboards? It’s true. Now, maybe they didn’t use this messageboard (maybe they did, who knows, it’s a secret), but if the forum-using community wasn’t going to control its own and keep people from being scary terrorist monsters, well, I don’t see why you should have a problem that the government come in and investigate you. I am sure that your family, neighbors, employer, friends, and acquaintances will all understand that, despite the official questioning, you are a perfectly innocent person with no blame. Even though you’re pretty much rubbing elbows with terrorists, almost. I am sure that the amount of time and energy you spend on this case, no matter what that may be, will be inconsequential compared to living in a free land where you’re innocent until proven guilty, unless you do something people don’t like or understand and are distantly associated with someone that did something bad.
Anyway, when are you organizing our Stop the Terrorism rally for messageboard posters?
Yes. Seriously. I bet the IRA and the UDA were caught more through the help of “grasses” than they were through the help of good intelligence work. Unless you call the recruiting of “grasses” and receiving anonymous phone calls, “good intelligence work”?
Who is more of a societal risk, the guy who spends most of his time on his PS2 when he’s not on his computer, or the guy/gal who’d prefer to be listening to a fire and brimstone imam with a group of equally confused and alienated people?
There’s also the small matter of considering whether the “FFA” give a damn about what the rest of the Muslim community think. For the record, they don’t - and as Angua has already pointed out, the FFA would quite happily kill other non-radical Muslims too. Which means that said non-radicals are both being targetted by terrorists and being accused of terrorism at the same time. I hope I don’t have to explain why this position is ludicrous, but I fear that before too long I shall.
Jeebus, people, this is the obvious stuff. You don’t have to be an expert in Middle Eastern socio-political ideologies to understand this.
The guy who thinks it’s okay to persecute innocent people to assuage his own irrational hysteria. That’s the guy I worry about, and there are a lot more people like him than there are bombmakers.
I’m also curious how you propose to monitor what everyone is doing in their spare time.
Do you think informants in Northern Ireland were any less threatened? Look, all I am saying is, muslims have more opportunity to keep an eye on their fellow muslims, than non-muslims. You can turn a blind eye to it if you are fearful, but your cowardice against facing said fears is only going to escalate the problem. In the meantime, I’ll do what I can do at my end.
Who is persecuting anyone? Asking a group that has known fanatical adherents amongst its members, to keep an eye and ear open for interesting information, is not persecution.
That’s not my job.
Hmm, one of them is a loner with tech skills.
The analogy would fit better if instead of “informants” you said “Catholics” - the radicals want to kill the non-radicals regardless of whether they inform on them. And the answer would be “yes”.
Those Muslims are such cowards for not trying harder to make us less afraid of them.
What are you doing at your end, apart from blaming all Muslims for the crimes of a violent minority? I suspect that the vast majority of American Muslims do not know anyone involved in terrorism, yet some folk here seem to think that their mere connection to Islam makes them suspect. Are you okay with that?
Of course not. But that’s not what is being asked. You said
Which is fine unless the main criterion for being investigated as a potential threat is “being Muslim”. Then it becomes persecution, and the “upset” is justified.
Of course not. Like magellan01, you just want people to be “wary”. And if that wariness eventually infringes upon the civil rights of a few people not like you, hey - it’s not your fault! You didn’t ask them specifically to do it! See the aforementioned Underpants Gnome analogy.
The other plays WoW.
I’m posting my views on a messageboard; I’m not exactly slapping people across the face with them.
I suspect they’d be surprised. Especially if they are under the impression that they are just “being picked on” for no reason at all, and are therefore even resistant to the idea that their family members might be involved in such activities.
For realz! None of that crappy virtual shit.
That’s it. I’m calling a jihad on your ass right fucking now.