And a very Merry Christmas to you, DeaganTheWolf. You should probably read the front page before you puff your chest out as to being “on top of the food chain.”
I tire of being the only vegetarian in this thread - so I’ll bid you all a good night. Oh, and…don’t dangle your foot off the bed!
Kiss those household pets before you fry them up, as well.
Well Blonde, you have given no incontrovertable proof that the raising of cattle for any purpose harms the environment, so bullshit right back atcha.
If you choose to be a vegetarian for health reasons, weight management, or just because you like cows, fine, but the honest truth is that your indignant, nay militant, stance opposing meat eaters is ill-placed at best, and fanatical at worst.
You have vaild reasons for being a vegetarian, but those are yours, and yours alone, the fact of the matter is that humans generally ARE omnivores, like it or not, and the eating of meat is, (while not exactly necessary with todays’ technology), evolutionary. Mankind worldwide could not, and I repeat could NOT survive without eating animals.
Plant protein is simply not a sustainable food source in all areas of the world, specifically in extremely cold or harsh climates, thus, animal protein is the relied upon sustenance. If you follow the logic from there, as most of the residents of America are indeed transplants from European countries, their ancestors ate meat because they had to, (read: they didn’t have the technology to turn plants into protein) thus, the tradition (and the need and desire) has been passed.
**You also said…
Yes, this is indeed true, but as previously stated, the people in those cultures you elude to will not be roasting MY dog, which, in the grand scheme of things, is all that matters to me. If they want to roast their dogs, that is their business, not mine. The veggie burgers and bacon taste good to you perhaps, but to me, the bacon looks and smells like dog treats, and the veggie burgers have a plastic consistency and taste like pressed cardboard, but again, this is my taste, and the amount of fat in the food i eat is, again, my business.
**bbeaty said…
There’s nothing inherently wrong with eating your own pets, and chickens/pigs are easily on the mental level of dogs and cats (if not even higher.) Just confront what it really means to kill an animal; rub your nose in the important sacrifice every single animal makes, and don’t be a coward who pays others to raise them and slaughter them because you cannot stand to do it yourself. Pay them to do it for honorable reasons: because you’ve delegated the task to them because of their expertise.**
That is a haughty and difficult statement bb, actually, to my sensibilites there IS something inherently worng with eating your pets, in fact, killing companion animals is a trait found in many serial killers (no cite, but i have read it). I don’t need to kill an animal to know what it is giving up for me, I can sympathize with death, and can understand what it means to be on a lower level of the food chain without killing a single thing personally.
The fact that I don’t wish to kill an animal, does not make me a coward. It makes me a person who was born, raised, and lives in a city environment, thus, raising a cow or chicken is, at least difficult, at most, illegal. Not to mention the fact that I have no experience as a butcher, and wouldn’t know a sick cow or chicken if I saw one. Which leads inevtiably to the threat to the public health.
The end result is that there will always be meat, available to eat, for anyone who wants it. There is far too much riding on it to not.
Oh, yes, and Vegetables have NEVER caused hepatitis or e-coli. Blonde, you make it too easy to discredit you.
And - you all remind me why I am a vegetarian.
Thanks!
Merry Christmas@
Blonde: Would you like to see the consumption of meat outlawed?
Hell yes. If it came down to either humans stay, or species x stays, bye bye species x.
Because nature is a contest of kill or be killed. News flash: we won. That is what gives us the right.
Enough with the strawman. At least add meat to your arguments, if not your diet.
To quote Chris Rock, “You can drive with your feet if you want to. It doesn’t make it a good idea.”
You can live without eating meat if you want to. It doesn’t make it a good idea.
Let me try to put this into perspective…I crave meat as much as you crave chocolate.
We are not above nature; we are a part of nature. We eat what we evolved to eat. Why do you wish to impose unnatural dietary restrictions on everybody else?
Whew! It took some time but, thanks to the nearly infinite wisdom and knowledge of the SDMB, here is the cite:
PCRM magazine has some details. And here’s an abstract with more.
Note that the study does not specify that meat-eating is the cause, just that the lower-risk population eats less meat. I have chosen to take that as enough reason for me to give up meat.
In response: I am not black, I am not elderly, I am not a woman, and I do not have diabetes; if this study is solid, I don’t see how it applies to me.
But I smell bias in the premise:
Sounds like a bunch of Nigerians who moved to Indianapolis displayed a higher risk than the ones who stayed in Nigeria, doesn’t it? But that’s a deception:
African Americans in Indianapolis are now of Nigerian descent? I must have missed the memo.
Emphasis added in all quotes
~emphasis mine~
Less does not equal none.
I’ll be the first to admit that the average diet of Americans includes too much meat. We eat more meat per year than Europeans. However, this does not mean that no meat is the preferred or natural way to go. I’ll repeat- less does not equal none. It would be far healthier to eat LESS meat. It would alleviate so many health and nutrition problems if we would all take a hard look at what we consume and adjust according to what we need, rather than crave*.
That being said, I’d like to add the following. I appreciate NoCoolUserName’s willingness to discuss. He has obviously put some thought into his beliefs and diet, and has a much less argumentative demeanor than some I could name.
Now, to sum up, less meat does not equal no meat. Americans eat way more meat than is healthy for us,** but eating meat is not stupid, wrong, bad, immoral, amoral, or harming the environment any worse than a lot of things***. Should anyone chose to further assert that folks who chose to eat meat are such, I suggest they take it to the pit. We’ll see how far it gets there.
Addendum: My cite for meat consumptions:
http://www.usda.gov/factbook/tables/ch2table21.jpg
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0DQA/1999_Sept_9/56000757/p1/article.jhtml
The Swedish one is a little outdated, but I’m sure you get the gist…
FaerieBeth
That would have been choose if I paid more attention and trusted my spell checker to checking spelling only and not grammar.
FB
You asked a question I answered it. First you agreed with me that meat does in fact taste better than tofu, then you chose to insult me.
Say would you care to join me in a nice hot cup of Christmas cheer?
:wally
Because you can’t comprehend the difference between pets and livestock? Either that, or because it gives you carte blanche to insult every carnivore with cracks like “Kiss those household pets before you fry them up, as well.”
:rolleyes:
Personally, I ignore all nutritional studies ever done. Why? CAUSE THEY CHANGE EVERY FIVE YEARS! Eggs are good, no they’re bad, well the whites are okay but the yolks are bad. Same damn thing with red meat. Just because it’s bad for us TODAY doesn’t mean it’ll be bad for us in two years.
And frankly, I don’t really care about my health TOO much. I figure, well, I could live to be 100, but spend all my time fretting over what’s healthy or not, avoiding any food that tastes good, avoiding smoking and drinkin, OR I could eat/drink/smoke what I want, be happy, and die 30 years earlier. I’ll take 70 years of happiness (with some medical problems) over 100 of being neurotically healthy.
Then again, I could live a wonderfully clean life, only to die in a car wreck at age 25.
Carpe Diem, baby!
Ahem, and I saw something about E. Coli and meat.
DID YOU KNOW that you’re more likely to get E Coli from veggies than beef due to the lack of cooking? E. Coli is basically shit, and shit doesn’t magically slide off veggies.
I’m one of those all-or-nothing type people. If you’re gonna be a vegetarian, good for you. But go all the way and be a vegan (egg chickens and dairy cows are treated just as horribly as meat animals). While you’re at it, if you have environmental concerns, bike your happy ass everywhere. Better yet, go live in a forest so your not using any electricity.
I’m not attacking anyone in that last paragraph, btw. It’s just MY personal feelings on the entire subject. I don’t have that kind of commitment, so I buy Free Roam. Mmm, tasty FR.
Another quick question for any Vegetarians that might be left, why (other than the supposed health reasons) is it not okay to kill animals, but plants are okay? They’re still ALIVE, after all. ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack, it’s just a simple question.
I’m gonna go have me a big bowl of broccoli (gotta kill my lung cancer from smoking, hehe).
We have to eat. I enjoy my food. Been vegetarian pretty much since I quit my job in March, lack of money. Kidney beans are cheaper than beef. They are good when cooked with rice and tomatoes with a little cayenne pepper but sometimes I would have to buy a package of lil’ smokies to cook with my rice and tomatoes. Does that make me an evil person? I have chickens. They are pretty much free-range, I guess. They forage in the yard and eat the corn I give them. They sleep in the trees at night. Every now and then I will run one down, kill it, slaughter it, cook it, and eat it. The surviving chickens don’t seem to hold it against me. I don’t do it often, beans are more passive. I like things cheap and easy. I got a part-time job 2 weeks ago and I will be paid today. I will buy a few pounds of ground chuck and cook THICK cheesburgers on the grill. This creates two moral quandries. PETA thinks I am wrong t eat meat and Jews think I am wrong to eat cheeseburgers. Neither group can give a valid argument. I feel that life is too short to be moralizing the food we eat, really I’m just glad to have some.
I recently read a few of the first passages of a bible found in a hotel room. One of those passages said something like paraphrasing and He made plants and they are meat. He made animals and they roamed the land…"
It was pretty interesting when I saw that, though I’m agnostic so it doesn’t matter anyway. Also, as far as an argument that nature makes us eat meat because of our teeth and such, that’s not quite right. Nature made us eat meat long ago to survive, because we didn’t have the knowledge that we have now. You can lead an exceptionally healthy life as a vegetarian (I’m not one) in the modern world. If everyone switched to Morningstar Farms ribs and corn dogs (very tasty) then people would eventually (thousands of years down the road) be born without sharp canines and all that. Also, just because a wild beast tears apart monkeys, does that mean we are obliged to do so? What is it that separates man from beast if not our ability to think and act as different than our furry friends? If we can live without leading animals to slaughter, why would we raise animals simply to kill them because they taste good. Try Morningstar “chicken” nuggets. They’re Grrrrreat!
But I don’t want to try them. I prefer to eat actual chicken nuggets. This is where I get completely baffled with vegans. I understand you don’t want to eat meat. I can respect your decision and even accommodate you in my house, but for some reason, you can’t do the same for me?
Pressing pamphlets into someone’s hand and screeching incessantly about the evils of meat is, IMO, akin to knocking on the door of a nonchristian and asking if they’ve received Christ as their personal savior or resigned themselves to hell. It’s rude and disrespectful to the perfectly valid beliefs they already have.
So, sadnil, if you want to be a vegan, that’s fine. Good for you! It takes planning and no small amount of willpower and dedication. I respect those traits in anyone!
FB
Thanks for that backup, I was thinking about it too, my dad owned a dairy farm, and I remember the cows being pretty darn docile and malleable insofar as their behaviour was concerned. The few somewhat stubborn ones could be enticed with a tasty bit of hay or grain.
Same with trailering a horse, yes they can get stubborn about getting in or out, but food usually does the trick.
FaerieBeth, you are absolutely right that people should not be assulting you with eat veggie propaganda. Completely. However, people are allowed to voice their opinion and even go to door to tell you that the only heaven is hell and you should worship satin accordingly. It’s your choice to listen or not. The same goes for your friends who are vegetarian. If they want you to experience veggie burgers (I recomend morning star farms tomato basil mushroom pizza burgers) then they get to ask you if you want to do that. If you go to their house and you want meat and they don’t want to cook it (as my wife won’t) then maybe you should start eating out with them instead or perhaps finding friends who won’t force their views upon you. Or you can bring over your own meat if your veggie pals don’t mind.
Sorry, I just wanted to mention a little bit about animals being docile and therefore not frequently needing to be beaten. A big reason why I brought up the issue of ripping cows out by their feet from the trailers is that I live in a part of the country where people would have absolutely no qualms about such a thing. Since it is very easy for me to believe that people are capable of such acts of cruelty, it’s easy for me to believe that it is common. If you knew how some people are in this part of the country, you would believe that people frequently brutilize their cows, pigs, etc. I’m sure that I did not mean to give offense to the well meaning farmers out there. If you are nice to your cows, kudos to you, but realize that there are many uncaring unflinching people out there.
Some questions I frequently ask the radical vegans;
> How many birds and other animals live on that big soybean field that provides your tofu?
> How many birds, animals and insects are killed every year in the plowing, planting and poisoning (herbicides and pesticides) of that field, so that you can have your tofu?
> How much of that poison gets into the water stream, poisoning fish, birds, other animals and US so that you can have your tofu?
> Do you realize that soy isn’t exactly 100% healthy for everyone? I for one can’t deal with too much soy.
> Do you realize that Cows, Sheep and Chickens aren’t exactly wildlife, and won’t survive on their own? Do you realize that if we stop eating meat, these animals will, by necessity, become extinct?
> Do you have any clue how many insects and other life forms you kill every day? (For those who hit me with the murder/guilt angle) Life for one means death for others. Period.
> Why do you people keep trying to make your soy and veggies look and taste like meat? Do you realize the hypocricy here? If you don’t want to eat meat, if you want to eat only grains and vegetables, then dammit, eat grains and veggies and stop trying to make fake meat!
> Don’t you people ever think about the issues of refusing to eat a living creature that’s mobile and has a face, while destroying the land to eat living beings that are immobile and don’t scream? They’re still alive. You’re just chosing an easier target that doesn’t make you feel as guilty.
