Addendum: I’d like to thank the (far and few between) vegetarians who have posted - all in a less passionate and more courteous manner than myself. I’ve been on the board for months, and while I’ve argued against animal abuse, I believe this is the first time I’ve discussed my reasons for being a vegetarian - with that said, I’d like to state that it’s not my intent to insult carnivores. I live with three, in fact.
And, I’d like to thank initech for naming my pet cow: Clyde it is!
Oh, I’d find it disturbing too. But you must admit that many people “look down” on cultures who eat puppies or kittens, right? One question would be, why? I’m sure they’re good eatin’. Just as tasty as cows or chickens, I’m sure.
I also find it bizarre that someone could swoon and claim to be “too sensitive” to pluck the chickens that they will later in the day eat, or “freak out” at seeing lobsters in a lobster tank, and yet still eat the dead animal. I figure, if seeing or (shudder!) touching the “dead animal” (or seeing it lounge around in a lobster tank) is too traumatic for certain “sensitive” people, then maybe they really have no business eating these creatures. To do so anyway is evidence of a “disconnect” that I find to be unworthy of respect.
Actually I take a rather sadistic glee in picking out my lobster. I even name it and have a little chat before I toss it in the pot. It’s still tasty, and I still don’t feel bad about it. If my survival was at stake, and exhausted other options, I’d eat my pets. If that didn’t fill the gap and starvation was imminent; I’d resort to cannibalism before I’d allow myself to die simply out of moral objections. When it’s dead it ceases to be a “living being” and has become meat. You aren’t going to hurt it’s feelings any more by consuming it’s flesh.
You’re not helping the cause, cowboy. Let’s assume your survival is NOT at stake. (So as to save animal/human bystanders.) When you’re dead, would you become “meat?” Would no-one mourn your death? I doubt it. You’re imposing a cold, impartial viewpoint without considering the pain of the victim. Which, of course, is your right - but count me out for the next mountain climbing expedition you join.
I’d like to echo yosemitebabe’s comments as to how one draws a line betweens “pets” and “non-pets” - I truly believe if carnivores had to actually look a live cow in the eye and kill it, they might change their tune, despite whether the slaughterhouse was humane or not. On that note, thanks to Psalex for her excellent comments as to the conditions of slaughterhouses.
I’m a former vegan, ran a vegan restaurant for a coupla years…
and a life-long hunter and fisherman. Ain’t Illinois grand?
I have had this very argument so very many times with so many people that it bores me to tears, but i will inflict some hard-earned wisdom on everyone, then flee. There is plenty of evidence to support my claims, but I shan’t bother to look it up. Sorry. Prove me wrong as I eat some BBQ elsewhere.
Humans have had a beneficial association with domestic animals for at least 10,000 years (I’m ignoring our prolly much longer relationship with dogs here). Many of these animals are the last descendants of extinct species, e.g., cattle are very friendly aurochs. It is a very natural and beautiful relationship which benefits both species (disagree? find me a wild bull in Europe).
That said, meat is one of those ancient holy things (like sex) which is now seen as an obscenity. The gods were strongly identified with animals, and their worship usually involved ritual slaughter, then eating (only part of the cow/goat/whatever was burned, usually the fat and some bones). The old, healthy relationship- animals and humans performing all their labors together, and food animals respectfully if not reverently dispatched- has been utterly perverted in the nightmare of factory farming. Anyone here ever been in a confinment pig farm? I have, and I know where Hitler is spending his next 5,000 incarnations. Killing animals and eating them is one thing. Treating them as an inanimate factory product is another. As the president of the Polish national farmers union said in resistance against American-style megafarms, “We’ve had concentration camps in Poland before, and we won’t have them again.”
Not to be rude, but both sides in this fight always drag out truly lame arguments. PETA likes to take one or two crazy instances (e.g., the cow dragging) and claim it’s SOP. The Carnies… wait, that makes them sound like circus folk… Meaties argue from tradition and claim it’s “natural.” But factory farming has nothing to do with the wholesome image of farming you may have. Americans overconsume grain-fed beef which is very rich in cholesterol and VERY unnatural. Heck, there is strong archaeological and historical evidence for human cannibalism. Why isn’t anyone claiming our teeth “evolved” to eat Derleth?
To the OP: eat free-range or organic meat. The animals are generally (sorta) well treated. Be prepared for sticker shock, however: it’s usually several times more costly.
BTW, the idea that people can live on meat alone is incorrect. You must ingest at least some plant products, or you will certainly die of scurvy or constipation or something else horrible. The Innuit (historically) managed an almost pure meat diet by drinking lots of spruce-needle tea and eating the stomach contents of herbivorous animals like elk (a lichen-based treat sometimes called “stomach ice cream”). So if you must eat meat alone, eat the whole animal, including nature’s haggis. Ta.
That would only hold true if you’re doing it properly (the sex bit, that is). 
I’m intrigued, though - why did you go from vegan to carnivore - you make some excellent points in support of the vegetarian camp.
Absolutely correct. The point is, as omnivores we can exist on the far end of the spectrum, to both sides but still require a diverse diet.
BLONDE: Whose cause? Not yours I’m sure. The point was that we apply illogical emotions to a valuable resource. Once a fish is dead, it will be consumed by one thing or another. As an omnivore why shouldn’t I exploit that nice fresh fish in the grocery store? We have raised cattle to be food. I enjoy the meat as a staple in my diet. I’m utilizing a resource. All omnivores will opt for meat and animal matter over plant matter.
I’m sure dead people are also a “resource” that you could “utilize.” Would you? I’m sure that when a loved one or relative dies that the protein that they leave behind could be very effectively “utilized.” So I guess you’re telling me that anyone who would balk at eating a dead relative is “applying illogical emotions” to a “valuable resource”?
Some cultures consider human embryos to be a delicacy (so I’ve heard—no cite). If you were in such a country, would you partake of this “delicacy”? After all, the human embryo is dead now. It’s now just a good source of protein.
So, would you eat it?
Stoid:
Beautifully said.
Blond:
The clear and simple answer to give anyone who asks: Why don’t you eat meat?
If either of these statements were printed on a t-shirt, would that satisfy the curiosity of meat-lovers or would the statements provoke the same condescension and derisive comments from some omnivores posting here? Until you are confronted at a steakhouse by a crazed, salad-wielding veggie, there is no reason to go on the offensive and attack a person for choosing a meat-free diet. But if you ask a vegetarian to provide more reasons for avoiding meat, then expect an emotional response. Research on the meat packing industry is readily available and there is credible evidence of animal cruelty in some big industry producers.
Defending the choice to go meat free is not difficult - but should be unnecessary. The OP simply asked for some help in making an informed choice about diet and lifestyle- I hope he has the patience to wade through this battle of wills in order to find the answer.
Playing favorites here, but a few more quotes seemed very reasonable and just:
Blaster: (such creditability- in this forum, you are an expert simply because of your experience- thank you for your input)
yosemitebabe: (diet also varies by culture, good point)
alterego: (on the argument of hunting wild animals versus big industry)
‘possum-stalker:
And then this:
DeaganTheWolf:
Have you skipped a step for the sake of convenience? Does your grocery store magically conjure dead fish? The source of the fish is important. The life and death of said fish is also important. I don’t know a single carnivore of sound mind who will eat a dead fish washed ashore from an oil spill. The notable issue is not the actual consumption of dead flesh, but the steps in between life and death. Whether or not the treatment during an animal’s life was humane or cruel. Whether or not the death of the animal was swift and as painless as possible. If you are aware of some sources for meat that was raised and killed in a clean and humane way, please provide this information.
For the record, Blaster is my husband.
DeaganTheWolf - how am I applying illogical emotions to a valuable resource? If we limit this discussion to cows alone, your argument is dead from Mad Cow disease, as the resource is tainted. Why is it “illogical” to love animals, anyway?
Yes I skipped a few steps as I didn’t find it necessary to list every little step in the process from live fish to fillet in the ice chest. I don’t understand the importance of the death of the animal in your choice in consuption of it’s flesh. Obviously if it’s died from poisoning etc, it not a viable food option. We aren’t talking about that here, we are talking about the quality of the already dead meat’s life. I don’t condone unnescessary cruelty, and buy from small local ranchers that I know and trust. If you read my previous posts in this thread you’ll see that i’ve worked a ranch during the slaughter season. All the animals were treated humanely and not overly stressed; they CERTAINLY were never tourtured. I do not buy from merchants that use unethical practices in regards to their animals. I don’t torture MYSELF over it though either. If my only option is to buy from a commercial operation then I will do so. I’m not going to feel bad about eating an animal. I buy locally out of sense of responsibility to the community and to encourage traditional humane ranching. I’ll kill a cow to eat it, hand me a gun and skinning knife. Frankly, I could give a crap about the poor dead cows.
As for the consumption of humans: It was an extreme designed to illustrate the concept of using what you have to survive. I wouldn’t want to eat another person for several reasons. I don’t like the idea of eating a sentient being. Animals DO NOT have the same level of awareness that we do. Humans are dirty and I’d probably get sick from doing it. Consumption of people could lead to the premature death of innocents for a cheap food product.
Here we are talking about animals born and raised for the sole purpose of human consumption; we are NOT talking about someones’ granny.
People have a right to eat whatever they’d like. I have no prblem with those who choose to be vegetarian. I feel that it’s an unnatural way of life that puts far too much dependance on modern technology and farming. I choose to abstain from a vegetarian diet for that and many other reasons. It’s when someone starts calling names, spreading false or questionable information and acting like a zealot that I take offense. I don’t bother people when they are eating their tofu and sprouts. Don’t bother me when i’m enjoying my meat.
DeaganTheWolf
This is the point of the OP. What are your sources for the meat you purchase? How did you research the practices of the farms you buy from? Do you have any helpful information to share?
Well, then I suppose you wouldn’t have a problem eating a severely retarded human being, or an embryo? They obviously don’t have the “same level of awareness,” after all.
By the way, where do you draw the line at “level of awareness” anyway?
“Premature death of innocents”? Please. One could apply that same term to animals. But wait—that would be “applying illogical emotions” and we mustn’t have that!
Wait a minute, wait a minute…
Aren’t you “applying illogical emotions” to a “valuable resource”? Granny is a valuable resource. If we can’t use her meat, we could probably use her bones or teeth or hair or something. So are you okay with that? And if not, why not? After all, we mustn’t “apply illogical emotions” to such a “valuable resource,” now should we?
ha ha ha ha
yosemitebabe, you are a funny lady.
Let’s start feeding Granny a diet of corn and grain now, and reduce her stress level as much as possible.
Meat schmeat-
Sounds like a plan, Psalex! I won’t explain to my mom (who is a granny) why I want to fatten her up on corn. No need to alarm her. Just keep her calm, calm, calm…
Well, okay. To save time, I’m choosing 3 of your points to debate.
Actually, we’re talking about whether it’s right to kill animals for food, not whether we should eat them if they’re already dead.
No response necessary
Vegetarians put too much dependence on modern technology and farming?? You have simply got to be kidding. If the beef consumption went down by 1/2 tomorrow, I won’t pretend to envision that the industry would find the perfect balance in breeding overnight. But, over time, we’d free up land, water - and don’t forget about the cattle, um…gas floating up into the atmosphere.
Here in central florida, I purchase my meat from a friend who ranches cattle. I go out to the land to go hunting and have seen the animals happy and well treated.
As to fillet of retard? I think i’ll pass. Embryos? why eat them? they are too little to make a decent food source. I said I would eat people if I HAVE to. I’m not eyeing you all up and making up some fava beans and pouring out the chianti. I think we OUGHT to do something with human remains, give em to science or something. It is a waste to simply bury them in a concrete vault where they don’t even go back to enrich the soil.
As to “Innocence” It requires the ability to lose it to qualify as having it. Animals don’t meet that mark. They cannot reason, and are driven by instinct. That is the difference.
Really? And I suppose that you exist ENTIRELY on vegetable food sources indidgenous to your region of the country? You don’t eat a food product produced in a different country or climate? How to your get vitamin b-12? It’s found only in meat. I’m assuming you either take a supplement or eat an enriched food. All of these things require processing, transportation, preserving, or genectic alteration to be more productive or more climate hardy. Do you eat soy products? they have to be processed with fairly modern techniques to create those products you know. If you eat a whole/raw foods diet that is location specific I apologize in advance.
hmmm… cattle require…Grass, space, enough of both sexes to make little cows…and something to kill it with and cut it up. Yep Meat requires WAY more than a vegetarian option.:rolleyes:
Why? Certainly sound like they’d be a good source of protein. Probably taste like chicken, too.
Not if you had several. And after they’ve been aborted, certainly they’re of no use to anyone else. Might as well “utilize” them as a “resource.”
But why wouldn’t you now? I mean, is there some emotional reason why you wouldn’t want to eat a human being, now would there? Because I certainly wouldn’t consider that to be logical of you—to attach emotion to the eating of whatever creature you are eating.
So, why not eat them? You really haven’t given us a good reason. Or, if the meat is tainted, why not “utilize” the other “resources” of the dead human body, in, say, the form of gelatin or something?
So is someone whose brain has been severely damaged—they are driven more by instinct, not reason. So why not eat the severely retarded or brain damaged? The cannot “reason” and they are driven by instinct. In fact, some brain damaged people are far less functioning and responsive than some animals. So, if you were to compare the two, the animal would come out looking far more clever and intelligent. So, why eat the “smarter” animal but not eat the “dumber” human?
DeaganTheWolf, I have no idea where my B-12 comes from - I’ll just go research that, and if any animals were killed in it’s creation, I do appreciate you calling my attention to it.
You’ve yet to present a compelling reason why one HAS to eat cows.