Help me understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[Aldebaran]

noone special,

Regarding your question:

I’m sorry, but I prefer to keep my privacy private.

And I’m not participating any further in this discussion.
Salaam. A

[KidCharlemagne]

*Originally posted by Noone Special *
**
As to the Jewish settlers in WB+GS - there are plenty of Arab citizens in Israel. Why not give the settlers a choice - stay and become a Palestinian citizen (possibly retaining Israeli citizenship as well) under Palestinian government, or leave.

Dan Abarbanel **

That’s even better. What do you think of CyberPundit’s argument about how a Palestinian state might end or reduce terrorism regardless of what guarantees are made beforehand? I can’t help but think that this is a case of:

Timmy : “Give me my ball back you asshole!”
Jonny: " I’ll give it back when you calm down."
Timmy : “Just give it back and I will calm down!”
and so on and so on.

What happens when an adult mediates this situation? “Jonny, give Timmy back the ball.”

[Noone_Special]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies *
**Also No-one Israel has shown criminal disregard for the lives of Palestinians and there are less savoury elements within the IDF that have actively targetted Palestinian civilians. **

Cite?

Originally posted by DissonanceThe cite is perfectly relevant, it was in response to the question of what UNSC resolutions Israel has failed to follow. It calls for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict [the 1967 War];” which Israel didn’t do and hasn’t done.

But notice the wording of the resolution - Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories… - just plain “territories”, not The territories. And this is a legal document. these things do not happen by chance in legal documents. So the import of the resolution is that Israel should “withdraw from (some of the) territories occupied…” - not all the territories. The bit about complete withdrawal is, IMO, a later development, and not the original intent of 242.

Originally posted by Aldebaran**
noone special,
Regarding your question:
I’m sorry, but I prefer to keep my privacy private.
And I’m not participating any further in this discussion.
Salaam. A**

Too bad, actually. I wasn’t trying to snip at you, and I think heated, partisan, non-objective - yet inteligent (well, at least from your side) debate is far preferable to bland, super-polite - yet inane - debate [well as long as it doesn’t go over the top, of course]. just wanted to point out that I think you may be coming from the other side of this partisan argument. You have as much right to your opinions as I do to mine, but I think you should identify yourself as a partisan in this argument, as I have. No more disclosure necessary. And if I am wrong about my assumptions, please correct me, and accept my appology

Dan Abarbanel

[Noone_Special]

*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne *
**That’s even better. What do you think of CyberPundit’s argument about how a Palestinian state might end or reduce terrorism regardless of what guarantees are made beforehand? I can’t help but think that this is a case of:

Timmy : “Give me my ball back you asshole!”
Jonny: " I’ll give it back when you calm down."
Timmy : “Just give it back and I will calm down!”
and so on and so on.

What happens when an adult mediates this situation? “Jonny, give Timmy back the ball.” **

OK, lets compare this to what I said earlier. I said that we do not want guaranteed peace (“calm down”) but rather cessation of terrorism against civilians (That’s the part you missed, where Timmy is doing is best to beat the living daylight out of Jonny). So if an adult mediates this? I think its:
“Timmy, you stop beating Jonny THIS INSTANT!”
“OK, now, Jonny - give Timmy back the ball”.

As I have said - this solution (cessation of terrorism against civilians, followed by a palestinian state) is acceptable to me, and I think to most other Israelis as well.

Dan Abarbanel

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

There are many human rights violations by the IDF, either as part of their policy or acted out by criminal elements within the IDF, here are just several taken from the reports from the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem:
Israeli army uses Palestinian civilians as human shields and forces them to go into houses and check for booby traps:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/2002_Human_Shield_Eng.pdf

Live ammunition used to enforce curfew:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/2002_Curfew_Eng.pdf

IDF ‘Trigger happy’:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Trigger_Happy_2002.asp

IDF attack ambulances:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Ambulances_Eng.pdf

Whitewash: failure to inestigate the death of 11 year-old Palestinian:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/2001/011113.asp

[Fang]

*Originally posted by Dissonance *
Fang: The cite is perfectly relevant, it was in response to the question of what UNSC resolutions Israel has failed to follow. It calls for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict [the 1967 War];” which Israel didn’t do and hasn’t done. Israel has also formally annexed the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, both occupied in the 1967 War, going against the quoted sentence “Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security.”

You are right about it calling for “Withdrawal…”, and I suppose that is pretty clear. However, I still say that the “acquisition” terminology can’t possibly apply to Israel, since Israel has never acquired the OT.

[CyberPundit]

About UNSC resolutions Israel has a case on 242 because it makes demands on both sides. However it has no case on several other resoutions like 452 which ask it to cease building settlements in the occupied territories.

This is a good article on the topic:
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0305/article/030511b.html

[Noone_Special]

To MC: Be’Tselem is not exactly an objective source. I can always link to somthing like Nekuda as a reference. I think neither of us will gain from these practices. Let’s stay with at least marginally mainstream sources here?

Dan Abarbanel

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

What problem do you have with B’Tslem? It is one of Israel’s largest and most respected human rights groups.

[Dissonance]

Originally posted by Fang
You are right about it calling for “Withdrawal…”, and I suppose that is pretty clear. However, I still say that the “acquisition” terminology can’t possibly apply to Israel, since Israel has never acquired the OT.

Excepting the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, both also occupied in the 1967 War and then annexed:http://www.1uptravel.com/geography/israel.html

Israel
GEOGRAPHY
Size: About 20,700 square kilometers. Occupied territories comprise additional 7,477 square kilometers: West Bank, 5,879; Gaza Strip, 378; East Jerusalem, annexed in July 1980, 70; and Golan Heights, annexed in December 1981, 1,150.

[Noone_Special]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies *
**What problem do you have with B’Tslem? It is one of Israel’s largest and most respected human rights groups. **

I dare say that it is respected in europe because[ul]
a. It only mentions Israeli wrongs, not Palestinian wrongs, in its reports.
b. It always (always!) opposes any position taken by the Israeli government[/ul]
Much like American pro-Vietnam movements in the '60-s. I’d stop short of calling them traitors or un-Israeli, but very much anti-establishment, which, IMO, is part of their driving force.
You get the picture.

Aside: It’s past 01:30 AM here, and I have to get up in the morning and get the kids to school. I’m game for about 5-10 more minutes, after that I’ll field any questions sometime tomorrow. Good night, all…

Dan Abarbanel

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

HRW:

Within three weeks, more than 120 Palestinians were killed and over 4,800 injured in clashes with Israeli security forces that began on September 29. Most of the deaths were the result of excessive, and often indiscriminate, use of lethal force by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers, police, and border police against unarmed civilian demonstrators, including children.

Amnesty:

Israeli security forces killed more than 460 Palestinians, including 79 children. The vast majority were killed unlawfully, when the lives of others were not in imminent danger, during demonstrations, during shelling of residential areas and at checkpoints. At least 32 Palestinians were deliberately targeted in extrajudicial executions which also killed 15 bystanders. IDF and other Israeli security forces using high-velocity ammunition and rubber-coated metal bullets killed and wounded demonstrators throwing stones or Molotov cocktails. Ammunition used against Palestinians included mortars, grenade launchers and artillery shells, including shells containing flechettes (5cm-long steel darts).

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Noone Special *
**I dare say that it is respected in europe because[ul]
a. It only mentions Israeli wrongs, not Palestinian wrongs, in its reports.
b. It always (always!) opposes any position taken by the Israeli government[/ul]
Much like American pro-Vietnam movements in the '60-s. I’d stop short of calling them traitors or un-Israeli, but very much anti-establishment, which, IMO, is part of their driving force.
You get the picture.

Aside: It’s past 01:30 AM here, and I have to get up in the morning and get the kids to school. I’m game for about 5-10 more minutes, after that I’ll field any questions sometime tomorrow. Good night, all…

Dan Abarbanel **

1. B’Tselem did formerly report on human rights abuses by Palestinians but it decided as the Israeli government was meant to represent them (i.e. as citizens of Israel) that it should concentrate on human rights abuses perpetrated in their name.

2. It’s not a political organisation, it’s a human rights organsation, it opposes Israeli government policies that it feels violates human rights.

It’s reports include the evidence which led them to their conclusions and there conclusions hardly differ from those of other human rights groups (see above).

[Alien]

Another question comes to mind to Dopers living in Israel. If Israel really accepts the idea of a Palestinian state, why doesn’t the government stand up and say: “OK, the land does belong to you, you’re right about that, and you should get it back, but we consider the resistance as a threat to our security, and we cannot leave before you have laid down your weapons and cease to attack us.”.

Far off, but I do believe Israel would have to come out and officially acknowledge that it isn’t really their land, before any negotiations about a Palestinian state can have any bearing.

After all, the US is saying something like that to the Iraqis.

And, why does Israel continue to build/approve new settlements, even now after the roadmap is in effect, if they accept the idea of a Palestinian state? They would have to dismantle those settlements anyway, it’s no way they can reach an agreement and keep all of the landmass where the current settlements are located, is there?

[KidCharlemagne]

*Originally posted by Noone Special *
**OK, lets compare this to what I said earlier. I said that we do not want guaranteed peace (“calm down”) but rather cessation of terrorism against civilians (That’s the part you missed, where Timmy is doing is best to beat the living daylight out of Jonny). So if an adult mediates this? I think its:
“Timmy, you stop beating Jonny THIS INSTANT!”
“OK, now, Jonny - give Timmy back the ball”.

As I have said - this solution (cessation of terrorism against civilians, followed by a palestinian state) is acceptable to me, and I think to most other Israelis as well.

Dan Abarbanel **

Fair enough. But at the risk of beating this analogy into the ground (and don’t feel you have to respond analogically): If the adult isn’t around, and you want the other kid to stop yelling, and you really did take his ball, why not just give it back? At worst you’ve given back what wasn’t yours and at best the kid stops yelling. Either way you earn the respect of other kids who, should the other kid not shut up, might join in the fight.

[Grey]

*Originally posted by Aldebaran *
**Grey, you leave out a few tiny little details: the Strate of Israel was planted in the midsts of a land that was inhabited by people. Not those who were encouraged to immigrate towards that land, but people who lived there long before that immigration started.

The whole creation of Israel at that location was a criminal unfair and arrogant injustice to begin with.
You also forget to notice how many Arab inhabitants were driven from their land, how many villages were flattened and how many people were and still are forced to go live in neighbouring countries.
You also forget that Israel one sided declared itself independent. **

I suppose you could have mischaracterized my statements in a more biased manner, but I’d be hard pressed to see how. You’ll note I also forgot to mention Arab land owners selling land worked by local Arabs to arriving Jewish settlers. All of which was irrelevant to my point.

My statement was to address ** KidCharlemagne**’s post about hostilities. I simply pointed out the actions of the neighboring Arab League state following UN resolution 181. The point was to identify whyIsrael might be extremely cautious when accepting yet another functional state filled with hostile inhabitants.

Perhaps you missed by attempt to soften the call for genocide from Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem?

*Originally posted by Aldebaran *
** think you should look at some more of the history, which is indeed all to be found on the UN website if you only goo looking for it.
Try to find the scandalous - and even more scandalous abused - Balfour declaration?
Oh wait, I’ll make it easy for you

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pp0

Do you see anyone of the Arab inhabitants, those who lived there before the Zionists encouraged the Jewish immigration and before the West mixed itself in the region, ask to have a whole new state planted in the middle of their land? I don’t think so.

Salaam. A **

Oh, pleas. The “West” has been involved in the region since day one. If you really want to get picky lets say Napoleonic times for our current crop of nastiness.

On a closing note, while I appreciate actual attempts at edification your snide and arrogant tone seems to belie you good intentions.

[GoHeels]

IMHO, Palestinian society is too screwed up to deal with. The fact is:

• There is no viable Palestinian Left (unlike Israel).
• There is no Palestinian Anwar Sadat; Arafat proved himself a pussy when he refused to put his life on the line for the sake of his people when he rejected Camp David and launched this utterly stupid and destructive intifada (and deligitimzed the Israeli Left and ushered in Sharon, nice going there, Yasir).

I still think the “withdraw, build the wall, and destroy utterly if attacked” strategy makes more sense than the present status quo, which worsens (from the Israeli perspective) with time because of demographic trends in the territories (not to mention the prospect of nations like Iran with the atomic bomb). Just my humble opinion, but I think the Palestinians are so screwed up that they will accept another generation of misery because they will pin their hopes of Hamas - Hamas promises by 2027 that sheer numbers of Palestinians will drive the “Zionist Entity” into the sea.

[Aldebaran]

Grey, speaking of arrogance, you just gave an excellent example.
You must have some idea about yourself.

Sorry, but I can only smile with this amuzing attempt to pose yourself as my “educator”.

Salaam. A

[Grey]

Yeah but GoHeels, IMHO is another forum entirely.

[Grey]

Aldebarab I’m sure I’m very nasty. You’d be good enough to point out:

a) My arrogance (likely not hard)
b) My attempt to educate you

All this for posting a quote from your link on the 1948 views of local Arabs and the Arab league to a Jewish state. Note to self… stay out of MENA threads.