Help with an unruly 11 year old

Request the School District Psychologist to screen him for ADD. Depending on your school district, they may or may not balk.

ALSO: first visit your primary care provider and talk to the doctor about the problem. Ask for a referral to a specialist. Don’t panic when the referral comes back for a child psychiatrist. The psychiatrist is the best qualified to do the screening.

Report back, LOL, and we’ll take it from there.

My son wrestled mightily with ADD. He’s extremely bright, which saved his hide, but he only attended about 30-40% of second grade because of his teacher not wanting to cope.

He passed to third grade at or above grade level in every subject, which is a testimony to his intellligence. He still loves to read! A child with ADD just has extreme difficulty in functioning at a classroom level.

Good luck!
~VOW

He sounds really bored to me. Another option (unless they don’t do this any more?) is not just advanced classes but skipping grades. If he tests above his grade level then even the advanced classes are probably too easy for him. When I was in 3rd grade, I wasn’t skipped exactly, but sent up to 5th and then 6th grade for reading classes.

Rule out a medical problem, and then see about advancing him so he’s not bored out of his skull. There’s so much different advice in this thread, all of it sounds good depending on what’s really going on with him. Find that out first.

I could write a dissertation on the topic of “Sixth Grade is THE Turning Point” in a kid’s life, assuming he’s just started Middle School and possibly still, even if not. Without turning this into the WOOKINPANUB show, I cannot stress enough how much I would advise you to stay on top of this situation.

Abridged bit of advice: punishment is counteractive at this point. Not to criticize your parenting skills, heck, I don’t even know you, but I think there’s WAY more going on than bad, punishable behavior on his part.

Maybe a conversation along the lines of: Kid, if you’re actually having trouble remembering to bring your assignments or parental signature to and from school, then we’ll help you with that. And if it’s something other than that, we’ll help you with that too. We don’t know what’s going on with you right now but something’s wrong and unacceptable, and we’re not angry, but we’re not going to let it lie.

This can be an incredibally hard time in a kid’s life , regardless of how well they’ve performed scholasticAlly or emotionally in the past.

Apologies if I’m reading your kid or your situation totally wrong but in my experience this is the time when a kid is constantly on the defensive; thus the lying. He’s defending himself against his peers, his teachers and his parents because he doesn’t really know what the fuck he’s supposed to do but feels like people are always challenging him and he’s in survival mode.

Eep; sorry if I’ve gone too far. Your OP struck a chord with me and I only hope things work out for the best.

It won’t end until they find something which lights a fire under their ass and motives them (this former underachiever knows what he is talking about). It could be a hobby, a sport, a calling of whatever sort, an event which alters his perspectives forever, anything, but until then he will flounder. If he’s lucky he won’t have to wait until his late 20’s to find out.

He, probably correctly, feels he has no power in his life. Like a girl with anorexia this is him having some control over something in his life, even though it’s negative.

My partner got around this with her son (my step-son) by outright bribery - money for results - but I always had the feeling that had she not insisted on winning every discussion, every argument, had shown some respect for him no matter how small the victory she allowed him, he wouldn’t have turned out the sneaky, passive-aggressive he now is.

I always used to say to her: pick your battles, don’t make a federal case about every single little transgression. For every criticism you make of him find something, no matter how tiny, to praise. And let him have his say and try and make his case, and when he’s wrong (as he will be 90+% of the time) don’t make it a humiliation but a constructive lesson. But she couldn’t help herself and we are where we are - he’s not a bad kid and is doing fairly well at school, but simply cannot ask for something straight up, has to try and inveigle his way in everything. Remarkable like her, oddly enough.

This is just strange to me.

Mother: “Johnny, you really need to start being more responsible about turning in your homework. This is ridiculous.”

Son: “I know, Mom. Turning in homework is just so dumb, though!”

Mother: “Yes. Yes, it is. Oh, by the way, I like your outfit today. Good job, champ! I love you!”

Are kids really that fragile that you have to actually praise them at every turn? I must have been abused as a kid then. When I screwed up, I got chewed out and that was that. No smoothing over afterwards. I wasn’t so delicate that I’d think no one loved me just because I was corrected, as I should have been. I got praised when I did well, but there was no washing up the criticism with some feigned appreciation. That just seems so nonsensical to me.

Your son was me. I was in every advanced and “gifted” class available. However, the only reason I graduated from high school on time (or at all) was because I got 1600 on my SATs, and the school didn’t want to explain why they didn’t graduate someone “that smart.”

There’s a lot of structure and pressure in the advanced classes. My niece is a basket case right now because she got her first A-. She is 11, and the school is nagging at her about college. And she’s still at the maturity level where she wants to play Barbies.

Please get him tested. For me, it was the pressure combined with OCD, depression (couldn’t be bothered), and some other abuse issues that had to do with my family. (I am not suggesting that the last is the case with your son, but the first three may be.)

Check with your PCP. I work for some pediatricians and they do deal with a fair number of kids that are on medication for these kinds of issues. My daughter’s pediatrician was a life saver when she started displaying anxiety issues. (Not the same, but you get the idea.)

Good luck!

No, I get it. Adults have more power and experience than children, and if their only communication with their kids is to point out their mistakes, to push them to do what they have to do, to impose their will on the kids, to undermine them as they’re in the process of figuring things out instead of helping them along the way and giving them positive messages about themselves and their progress, the result will be frustration and rebellion. It’s not a question of ‘You completely bombed this test because you didn’t study enough. But hey, nice penmanship here where you told Mrs. Mathteacher to kiss your hairy behind!,’ but rather making sure that you aren’t using your advantages and the power imbalance to keep pushing the kids down and make sure they never have a chance to ‘win’ once in a while.

OP, I can’t give you much useful advice, except to say that this is a classic age and class year for kids (especially boys, in my extremely anecdotal observation) to have difficulties in school and with their parents. It is so worth checking out whether there is an underlying issue like ADHD or depression or bullying or dyslexia, and otherwise it can simply be a sign that he’s taking his first steps towards making his own way through life instead of just accepting what he’s told to do. The first steps towards independence are painful and mystifying. I hope all goes well for him and for you in the end!

Time to have a “real world” talk with him. If he’s that smart, then he’s bored and has figured out that homework is pointless and for chumps. He can do none of it and pass with c’s or even better in most classes. Sit him down and ask him directly and respectfully what’s up. DO NOT treat him like a kid on this topic. If this is the case, then explain to him that in life we all have to do bullshit, and that is what is called a “job”. His job is to do his damn homework and you’ll pay him to do so. Providing he doesn’t skip assignments etc, pay him a small but reasonable recompense weekly for doing his work and turning it in. Assign him a reasonable standard of performance in the work, then step away. Don’t check it, or force him to correct every problem or answer; he’s smart enough to do it himself. If he falls below the performance goal he doesn’t get paid, and goes back on punishment. Carrot and stick. If that doesn’t cure it, nothing will and you’ll have to let him fail.

Homework is pointless bullshit for a lot of smart kids. Just because the are children doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be compensated for their trouble. We do this every day to hold down the house. How many of us would totally do our jobs for free? Not many, I’m willing to bet. We do something we find to be an acceptable level of annoyance in return for a paycheck which allows us to pursue the things we want to do! Kids have their needs met, so what is their motivation to do extra, unpleasant, pointless (to them) work? Punishment only works so much, and yet if we forced adults to work, it’s called slavery, or forced labor. It isn’t exactly the same, and I know it, but the principle argument is accurate.

Drugs or alcohol. I know he’s only eleven so unlikely but it’s been known to happen. There are several people in my acquaintence who started ‘experimenting’ at that age or younger.

I also suggest having the school psychologist do some testing for learning disorders and ADD.
I was just like your son at age 11 and 12. Once middle school started I just couldn’t keep track of everything, and I also told my parents I had no homework, when in fact I had lots of it. But I either wasn’t paying enough attention when it was assigned or just completely forgot afterwards. So I wasn’t lying, I really thought I had nothing do to.
I often got punished by teachers for reading instead of doing my work. But what they didn’t realize was that often I had finished my work (usually the spelling or reading assignments) and was pulling out a book out of boredom.
I got evaluated by the school and diagnosed with ADD, primarily inattentive. I got an IEP and some extra help after class, and extra prompting by the teachers to WRITE DOWN all assignments.

If he is going through what I did, he may have to learn the skills needed to work through something like ADD but also may benefit from medications. I know they are often over prescribed, but they helped me stay focused and made a difference in my grades.

I talked it over with my wife and we are pretty much decided on getting him checked out at the PCP. He has worked with someone at the school, not sure if it was a psychologist or social worker, in the past but I don’t think he was ever tested for anything like ADD or OCD. At least I was never told about it. It will probably take a couple weeks to get an appointment at the PCP’s office.

He has no interest in sports. We had him on a t-ball team and he refused to go back a second season because it was too much running. We had him in Tae Kwon Do as well, but he hated that too and we had to drag him to class until our contract ran out. He as stuck with scouting for the past 6 years, and just joined a Boy Scout troop back in March, but he has yet to earn his first rank because he won’t do the work to get it.

We’ve tried bribing him in the past and it has never worked. Candy, McDonald’s, video games, money… He’d rather just go without any of that than do his homework. The same goes for cleaning his room.

I sat down with him, just me and him without my wife, and told him that I will treat him like an 11 year old, as long as he acts like an 11 year old. I will do my best to curb my anger as long as he does his best to perform like a 6th grader. It’s only been a couple days, so we’ll see how well that works.

His accelerated classes demand that he keeps a B+ average or they will move him to a lower level class. He told me he wanted out of the accelerated classes because then he’d have less homework. I told him that was not true. The regular classes have more homework and spend more time on a unit because they need more practice. I’m not sure if that is 100% true, but I am worried that if he moves down, he will be even more bored and things will get worse.

I didn’t get into the accelerated math and science courses until I was in high school, myself, so I probably shouldn’t be too worried. I’m hoping it’s just a phase, but I don’t want him to be stuck in a bad situation once he comes out of it.

My suggestion was more mechanical. Have him scan in his homework each night and e-mail it to the teacher. Once he’s scanned and e-mailed it, he’s allowed to do his normal pastimes like reading. It might not magically solve all his problems, but the homework will be done and turned in.

StG

Where do I start…well, maybe at the very beginning. A major problem with schools is the way they teach. We’re talking about a bunch of under-paid nobodies that are charged with one of the hardest and most important jobs in the world…teaching children. While this should be done by the parents, it’s extremely hard to do so in today’s world, and even the parents screw this whole teaching thing up really bad. Every child should be tested on various teaching techniques to discover what triggers their brain to want to pay attention, not put them on a drug to make them pay attention that’s for sure.

The problem here is not the learning or anything associated with the child, the problem is society. First of all, why does the child need to turn in homework? My dad would say that the whole point of school is to teach you to jump through hoops, I like to add to that and say that after you learn how to jump, then they put you in bigger classroom and make you wear a monkey suit.

Uber intelligent kids are constantly being shoved down and forced to do the same things as the mediocre. I bet that if we merely found those who weren’t fit for the monkey suit and seperated them from those that are, we’d have a lot more geniuses running around, and the geniuses that are out there would probably be even smarter I’d imagine.

If he’s getting good grades, then I’d say the problem is not with your son. I remember hating textbooks and having to sit all day long in that stupid classroom. I even remember saying to myself: “Man, if I could just go outside and sit around a while, look at some real stuff and feel the wind on my face…I’d be like freakin’ Isaac Newton, man.” As it turns out, I was entirely correct. It wasn’t long after I finally got out of the prison (school), that I actually gained an interest in learning…but I did it my way, no one elses. Of course, it also turns out that my particular skill is highly useless in a world that revolves around slave labor (if you don’t think you’re a slave, then try walking out of your workplace and telling your boss you’ll be back in a couple hours…and if you still have a job when you come back, then I guess you’re not a slave).

No, I’m not some ‘F the system’ or ‘the man’s just keepin us down’ sorta guy, I’m just someone who has the unique ability to observe what I see and call it what it is. Unlike some punk losers that think there’s some system in-place to keep them from being great, I actually understand what’s really going on and how there’s no way that any society could work differently and survive.

My real point is that your son isn’t to be taken lightly. I’d imagine that if there was a school that would simply through the textbooks out the window and teach him some real knowledge, not only would he be greatful, but he’d be able to find out what his true talents are. I actually cried a little when I found out that nothing I learned in school applied to the real world, and it hit me like a bucket of ice-water to the face.

I’ve got a lot more to say on this subject, but I’m stopingthis post here cause it’s way too long…sorry 'bout that.

snip.

Shadowfyre, I’m just a guy on the internet, and my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, but I’m going to put this out there anyway. Even if your child is diagnosed with some type of ADD/ADHD, think long and hard about it before insisting on a course of medication. Your son sounds just like me at that age. Same love of reading, quick intellect, high test scores, and poor homework performance. Medicating is nothing more or less then altering the brain chemistry of your child. Be very, very, sure you want to do this just to possibly improve his homework performance. Why is this so critical to you? He’s in 6 th grade. None of that matters in the least until high school. It doesn’t sound at all like he has a problem focusing, but rather that he is simply not interested in the material. He’s bored. It’s not relevant, or he already knows it. If this is assertion of independence on his part, you might be able to get him to comply by giving up your control on some other part of his life. In my case, bribery worked. It sounds like it may not motivate him so perhaps he needs something else to interest him. Or maybe he just needs time to daydream. Why is it important that he is in accelerated classes?

I’m not anti-meds. Some kids need them. Some adults do as well. I’ve a friend who isn’t able to function normally without them; and while he is brilliant, he is also insufferable without them. Just be really, really sure.

My parents tried this route with me and they only made me feel sluggish and ill. My scores did improve somewhat, but not because of an improvement in focus. It was more that I felt apathetic, and just complied because it felt easier at that point. I had no real will for much. I was quieter. I also lost all my creativity, most of my energy, and a good bit of lust for life while on them. Eventually I just resorted to hiding them between my teeth and gums and spitting them out. Homework scores went back down, but I was happier, and felt like myself again. That was more important. My mother was not pleased but my father had noticed the changes and was glad to have his kid back again, homework problems and all.

I think you’re on the right track here and it’s important to note that if he’s the type that will not learn until he fails at something the sooner that happens the better for his future.

Dropping his grades low enough to put him in the normal class stream and having him discover that the grass is not greener on the other side of that particular fence is a lot more recoverable in grade 6 than you continuing to manage his work for him until he is in high school and having him fail there.

You and your wife need to be ready to let him experience the consequences now and to not fight with the school for an exception to be made for him when his grades do dip that low.

There are 3 possible outcomes:

  1. he will hate the regular stream as well and continue to avoid homework
  2. he will hate the regular stream and start working to get back into his advanced classes
  3. he will love the regular stream and will do the work required to stay there.

2/3 ain’t bad :slight_smile:

Ruh-roh Scooby – have you had yelling/anger/flare ups over this? It strikes me that your kid is a bit of a Bartleby type (“I would prefer not to”) and Bartleby types are almost indescribably stubborn. I know, because I am one. You can’t yell at a Bartleby because Bartleby cannot be intimidated. Yelling at Bartleby just makes Bartleby think you are a yelling moron.

True story, my father forced me to learn to ride a bike when I was around 11. I did one lap of the schoolyard to show I could and never, ever sat on a bike again. Bartleby.

I suggest that if you lie to your son, especially about matters where you are so easily caught out in your lie, you will soon find he believes nothing of what you say and gives little weight to your opinion. Why didn’t you tell him the truth as you just stated it above? (highlighted in bold). I honestly can’t understand why you didn’t. The truth isn’t something shameful or embarassing, it’s not personal or insulting. What did you profit by lying?

Could the root issue(s) be more than school? How is his home life? No, not just with his parents, but his friends, too? Does he play well alone, and with friends? You feed him well? Does he surf the web alot? Watch TV? Play video games too much?

Yeah, we’ve had some issues with yelling lately. It’s kind of hard not to. This started fairly slowly, so we kept our temper and tried to work with it. But day after day of what seems like deliberately not following agreements and rules, and nearly constant lies, and teachers start calling home, you lose your temper. I do my best to apologize afterward.

My wife was brought up where she got yelled at for even the most minor infractions until she graduated high school. So I’ve been trying to temper her temper. :smiley:

I don’t think I lied to him, but I’m not sure that the lower track classes, on any given day, will have more homework than the accelerated classes. I know it is a fact that they take longer to get through each unit in the book. Besides, being bored is not a deterrent to him.

As far as his home life, he does not have many friends. And the few friends he does have tend to distance themselves from him at school so they don’t get teased for being his friend. My son has a unique personality that may rub a lot of kids in his grade the wrong way. Since he is the youngest in his class, some of his classmates could be close to a year older than him. And he already acts immature for his age. There had been talk in the past about moving him up a grade, but we never really considered it because there would be an even wider maturity gap between them.

He loves video games and TV, though. That is why we had to ground him from them, so they would not be a distraction. The problem persists even with those distractions removed.

Damn, why did you wait so long to impart your knowledge? You could have eliminated the very reason for the SDMB and its ignorance fighting decades ago.