I’m not entirely sure what you think you read or why you think I have some “view of the way things ought to be”; since you’re so wound up in a pissing contest with yourself about it, I’ll clarify that what I said was that the 6-Series, old or new, will always have classic styling on its side, whereas the Firebird will always be a flash in the pan. You seem to take that as some sort of signal to launch into justifying the price of an F-body and the market need for affordable muscle. Around the same time, Throatwarbler made the “unpretentious” suggestion that his aesthetic deems a Firebird more stylish than a 6-Series, and then you launched into something about apples, a neighbor, a 335, and an F-body that costs $40k+, only to later admit that they usually sticker in the high $20’s and also suggest that the new one would sticker around $30k, which is still quite a bit less than “two-thirds, nay, one-half of $75,000”.
I honestly don’t know what you’re on about, or why you think you need to be on about it, but I think you just just lost an argument with … yourself.
“So you want more than one? Does each add a compensatory inch?”
which you posted after:
“Anyone who actually touts their superior aesthetic as it applies to the F-body Firebird probably isn’t someone you want to have an automotive styling discussion with. I thought the Firebird was cool once too … for about ten minutes … when I was 17”
It paints your opinions in a very unflattering light. Or did I somehow miss something in all the snark?
It is kind of a strange opinion to have. I have owned dodges only for about 15 years now and have worked for dodge for over twenty years. Before that I owned a big three car for the thirty years I have been driving. Almost all of my time since I was old enough to drive has been spent in the automotive industry in one capacity or another. If there is one thing that I have learned is that lemons are made by every single manufacturer in the world. The difference between a rolls royce and a chevy is how much it costs to fix it. To single one make out is a little foolish. Even the big three aren’t so big any more. Who would have thought toyota would ever run in nascar? As far as the current muscle car situation goes, the mustang is in the lead. Across from the Las Vegas motor speedway is Shelbys lot and there are at least a thousand mustangs waiting there to get their fix. Camaros and challengers aren’t even on the road yet so they have a lot of catching up to do. I believe I heard that every dealer will get two challengers to start. It’s going to be slim pickings to get one and I’m sure they will go for a premium price just like prowlers and vipers did when they first came out. Me, I love all muscle cars. Not just dodges. Buicks, olds, amcs, fords, mercurys, chevys pontiacs all of them. They are, for an older guy like me, a reminder of my youth, when we would have cruise Fremont street in downtown Vegas when you could still drive on it. Those were the days.
I guess Throatwarbler’s opinions didn’t paint him in “a very unflattering light” when he spoke of the 6’s “heart-breaking ugliness” though?
I didn’t refer to either car being ugly. It doesn’t take much to design a “racy” car, which is why the styling on one will age quicker than the other. I also said that they have very little in common with one another, so any comparison between the two is a waste of time, a sentiment which you seem to agree with. Some people want to be in the most flamboyantly styled car they can find. Most do not. I personally would rather drive a Hyundai Accent than a Firebird, and it has nothing to do with how fast they are, how much they cost, or how well they’re put together … it has everything to do with the fact that I’d be embarassed to be seen behind the wheel of an F-body or any other high-performance car, not because it’s a GM product, but because people tend to have a certain opinion about the kind of person who drives such a car. More often than not, they’re guys in high school (or just out of high school) who share a compulsion to play Speed Racer during rush hour. Of course this is a generalization, as there are F-body owners who aren’t this way, but that is the stereotype that exists nonetheless and I wouldn’t want to be associated with it. Brand loyalty has nothing to do with it either; the sociopathic choads with an inexpensive fast car (foreign or domestic) make the normal owners of that car look bad, and I wouldn’t want to be judged as a sociopathic choad on the basis of my car for the same reason I wouldn’t want to be judged for wearing baggy pants or a backwards baseball cap.
I admire domestic products and am happy to see GM turning over a new leaf in design and engineering. I like the F-body twins and the new Camaro for what they are, but the association they have with the sort of person who carries a pink slip in their glovebox, unfair as it may be, isn’t for everyone.
I don’t care what other people think about my cars. They’re not making the payments. I DO care that, if I’m paying $400-850 a month (It’s varied over the years, depending on which car I’m paying for), I damn well better enjoy the car I’m driving.
To me, that means more power than necessary, better brakes, reasonable of not extravigant appointments.
The family currently has an Avalanche (reviled amongst Straight dopers), two Corvettes (reviled by some Straight Dopers) and a Subaru STI (it gets a pass because it’s Japanese, Straight dopers think it’s just an econo car)…I’ve also had a PT Cruiser in the past (reviled by Straight Dopers)
They have all been FUN to drive, useful for my needs, and have varying degrees of ‘staying power’ from a cosmetic standpoint.
I may be a little old to be driving a ‘Boy Racer riceburner’ car, but it sure is fun.
" I’d be embarassed to be seen behind the wheel of an F-body or any other high-performance car, not because it’s a GM product, but because people tend to have a certain opinion about the kind of person who drives such a car."
I can understand that. Just so long as you understand that a person’s choice in a vehicle is emotional. And when you dismiss their emotional involvement, you’ll get an emotional response.
I have also found that a person’s opinion of you often has nothing to do with you, and often, there’s nothing you can do about it.
Ha, I’ve often wondered whether (given Ford’s attempt at embracing the past with Bullitt and Shelby specialty models) GM might do something similar and produce a Firebird Bandit Edition … complete with shaker hood, gold pinstripe/decal package, and an Old Spice scented interior.
How much of a market will there be for these cars, if gas goes over $4.00/gallon? I suspect there will be a market, but quite small. Honestly, here where I live (NE) the roads are so clogged that driving isn’t much fun anymore-so I increasingly look at cars as appliances-and the aesthetics don’t reach me anymore.
The biggest problem I have with the new Challenger is it’s lack of a manual transmission option, it ships only with a stupid sludgebox, and no, the “autostick” manumatic feature does not in any way qualify as a manual, it’s nothing more than a user-actuated sludgebox
the transmission is still an automatic type, with a fluid-filled torque converter, not a clutch mechanism and standard gears
sorry, no sale
it really pisses me off that manufacturers are abandoning the manual transmission, and making many cars sludgebox-by-default, the new saturn Vue was slated to have a manual option, but GM killed it, stupid move
oh well, i’m just happy my current car is a manual, I’ll never own an automatic
tangent aside, I do like the retro look of all 3 Musclecars, the Challenger, the Camaro and the Mustang, it’s nice to see “unique” looking cars again, not the cookiecutter “jellybean-esque” amorphous aerodynamic blobs that we currently have, heck, from the front end, my Saturn Ion looks like a baby Toyota Camry for Og’s sake
Well if youre gonna go that route, theres John Force’s Mustang this car has round about 7500 hp it pulls 6g’s from a standing start and regularly tops 300mph in the quarter…nuff said.
You’re kind of one of the ones with odd opinions. Driving a dodge neon and then a saturn doesnt really strike me as a fair representation of muscle cars in general. Many muscle cars were produced with automatics. The comparison of front wheel drive cars and rear wheel drive cars doesn’t really make sense to me. Maybe because I’m old. I can tell you why manufacturers are getting rid of sticks. Customers don’t wan’t them. If you do fill out your survey.
Keep in mind that was coming from someone who thinks a Saturn Ion resembles a Toyota Camry. I don’t think I could confuse the two with both eyes closed.
Did I ever claim that the Neon and the Ion were muscle cars?, you’d have to be insane to consider them that, they are econoboxes, nothing more, and mediocre econoboxes to boot
I’ve driven sports cars, muscle cars, big trucks, I happen to prefer a manual transmission, nothing more, and I have told Chrysler how dissapointed I was about the Challenger coming with an automatic only, i know they really couldn’t care less, as one customer’s opinion is statistically irrelavent, but I wanted to register my complaint anyway
If money was no object, and gas prices were cheap again, I sure as heck wouldn’t be driving an econobox, I’d be driving a '69 Dodge Charger, a Plymouth GTX, or a Dodge Viper GTS, maybe a Porsche 911
oh and the Ion does kinda look like a mid-90’s Camry from the front only, the headlights and grille share a similar shape, from the front, it’s “Toyota-esque”
I drive an '06 Charger Daytona. It’s pure awesomeness. Although I wish I had waited for the Challenger, my Dakota was on its last leg, and I travel too much for a coupe to be practical.
One of the other markets the Charger was marketed to were those who grew up watching the Dukes of Hazard. They want the power, they want the speed, but they need to be able to fit a toddler and a car seat in the back.
That’s the only downside I see to my car. If it had been offered in a stick, I would have gone that route. It’s the first time I’ve driven an automatic since high school. I’m still getting used to it.
Don’t sell yourself short on your opinion counting. Be sure that together they add up. I can remember when chrysler said they wouldn’t put a hemi engine in a half ton pick up and now they put them in cars. For me, money was no object on my last car purchase. It was a choice between a 4 door viper pickup, a Magnum srt or a durango. In the end I chose the durango. The pickup is kind of ridiculous because you can never use it as a pickup. The magnum was way too ass squirrelly, the durango still has excellent power and was a grand cheaper than the magnum and has every option available except 4wd and is very safe. I figured I would drive it until a year after the challenger came out and if its cool I’ll get one of those. If not I’ll check out the camaro. I’ve driven a mustang and although I love the style It wasn’t very comfortable.
One big difference between the Camaro and the Mustang - the Camaro has 4 wheel independent suspension. The Mustang has a live axle. So if it’s done right, the Camaro should handle like a true sports coupe, while the Mustang doesn’t.
