Do you think it’s possible for people to support the war but be obligated to fight it? Do you support your local police department? If so when is your tour of duty? Do you support your local fire department? If so why aren’t you walking into burning buildings?
If you can’t see that terrorists and dictators need to be eliminated, you’re beyond help.
I can’t speak for milkman, but:
Yes, our soldiers agree to pledge their lives to the protection of their country.
What I sure as hell expect, is that if we’re calling for them to be dying, that we make damn sure it’s to protect the nation.
Or, in brief, their job is to follow orders, ours is to not support orders that call for them to throw away their lives.
Oh fucking get off it, you still expect to call the shots and collect a check. Welfare works like that but the fucking military doesn’t so my advise to you is to stay the fuck away from it, it’s over your head.
So which part exactly do you have a problem with?
The whole “not throwing away human lives.”
or “not throwing away human lives?”
Just curious.
I do?
Please explain this to me, as I am baffled.
Know you didn’t address this to me, but…
If you mean “but not be” then, yes.
Because one can support their local police and fire department by donating money? And support them quite well?
One could also say that you were supporting your local police and fire department if you objected to/opposed a politician who wanted to misuse/waste the lives of firefighters and police officers.
One could also add that the bussiness of both of those classes isn’t the same as that of a soldier, and a solider might require a different sort of support.
Eliminted?
Rambo style? With bombs and everything?
First, who chooses who is a dictator and who’se a terrorist?
If it’s the UN, what to do we do when, say, the UN doesn’t grant us authorization to ‘eliminate’ a ‘dictator or terrorist.’
Moreoever, as terrorirm may also be defined as actions taken to induce fear and societal compliance in societies, then the United States government is guilty of it.
Finally, if we go around ‘eliminating’ ‘terrorists and dictators’ we end up
a) producing power vacuums
b) creating ill will
c) providing fodder for terrorist propaganda
d) (and this is the kicker) increasing the risk to Americans at home and abroad.
So, you see, maybe not everybody is beyond help?
OK, I’ve given some thought to this, and I’m not still not sure that I can put it into the words that I want to put it into, but I’ll try.
How do you think I feel? Empty platitudes are meaningless. On the other hand, since our society has become so morally bankrupt that we are told that putting a magnet on our cars is the height of patriotism, how can you blame anybody for their jingoism? They’ve been told for years and years that America is invincible, that we are the strongest country in the world, that we can’t be beaten. They are wrong. The most high-tech weaponry in the world cannot defeat ideology. One would think that the lessons of Vietnam would be remembered, but they were not, and so now we’re faced with what with every passing day looks like Vietnam, redux.
So they sit at home, content in their “support” for the good ol’ American boys, when in most cases there is no such thing. They take it for granted that people will continue to volunteer for the armed forces, and they’re 100% correct in their assessment. However, now that the war has shown itself to be a for real war, not just another quickie like we’ve been doing for the last 30 years, they’re not equipped to deal with it. So what do they do? They vote for the guy who started it, in the hopes that he knew what he was doing, even as all evidence is contrary to that opinion. It’s simply human nature to trust.
On the other hand, most people do not actively hope for the deaths of more Americans, and I guess that’s about the best I can hope for. As for me, I take it a step further and hope that no more Iraqis have to die. However, I think we all know that that’s simply not possible. I’m actually conflicted on that, by the way. You see, I believe that anyone fighting for their home, for their country, is worthy of respect. But I don’t even know who we’re fighting. Are we fighting an insurgency? If so, kill them all, because they’re disrupting any attempt to make Iraq into a peaceful place for its citizens. Are we fighting rivals for power looking to fill Saddam’s vacuum? If so, which ones should we fight, and which should we support? Or are we fighting people defending their homes, in which case the question should be asked “How did we get to this point?”. I just don’t know. I suspect that nobody does.
I would grit my teeth if I hadn’t volunteered. I voluntarily signed on the dotted line so that people could enjoy their Game Boys. I have no right to ask for more.
I don’t. I think they’re only human. Humans have a long tradition of supporting their own, even when they can’t fight on behalf of their side. That’s what tribal warfare was all about. And make no mistake, when a war is on it’s us vs. them, and it’s only natural that people would take that mindset even if they have no intention of fighting. Take you and me, for example. I’m not playing for the Steelers, nor are you. But it’s still “our” team, right? “We” still won last week, right? It’s common to identify in that manner.
The only thing that gets me down is the people (a very small subset of people, I might add) that are not simply indifferent but are outright hostile to people in the military. They have the right to be that way, indeed, I fight for their right to do it, but it’s for that exact reason that they torque me off.
I’ll take indifference any day, and jingoism is far and away better than hostility from where I sit.
I hope that answers some of your questions. It’s tough to walk the line that I have to walk, especially with what my opinions are, or more appropriately have become. I would just ask that you don’t try to force me into saying things that you know I’m not allowed to say.
AD, you are the embodiment of the foreign policy I wish your country did have rather than the one it has now. This administration confuses courage with aggression, patient rigour with cowardice, and diplomacy with weakness.
If you don’t see that people who suffer from the criminal terrorist actions of your Glorious Leader, your Glorious Terrorist Organisation commonly called the CIA and your Glorious Nation (since they represent it), take your Glorious Leader and your Glorious Terrorist Organisation named CIA and your Glorious Nation for hypocritical criminal terroristic dictators/dictatorship, you are beyond help.
Salaam. A
In order, I tried to join the Marines, the Air Force, the Navy and then the Army. I admit I didn’t check with the coast guard. They wouldn’t let me join because I had asthma as a child. They pretty much told me not to bother.
Ah well, people insult me, people insult them back. What a wonderful world.
Yes, give into your anger! Strike me down, and journey towards the dark side will be complete!
The only way to eliminate them is “War” ? Here is your limitation in thinking about the subject.
“Terrorists” don’t sprout from the ground and ready to kill white boys in Iraq. If you sow discontent and then complain about its effects and repeat the same mistakes of the past… your not solving anything but perpetuating a cycle of violence and mistrust.
At what point is “defending” the US and americans becoming a “defend” Pride ? When does “fighting terrorists” become only arrogance ? Is it unnaceptable for the USA not to show strength… not to take a step back ? Vietnam redux like AD said…
Unfortunately many will see, and I think correctly so, the military brass as willing participants to the folly of your civilian leadership. So “hostility” might not exactly be against “the military” but the big guys on top.
As for "indifference" that isn't quite possible... Iraq is not only about body bags for bad reasons... its about American prestige squandered... about creating a more workable and peaceful world squandered. I see a lot of americans sad at these developments. Many think that its the "soul" of America that is stained... not only sand in Iraq with spilled blood.
Why do I have the impression that there aren’t many like you in the military Airman ? Or if there are… not enough of them in the higher positions ? I know that the military are supposed to obey and do their job… but this “passivity” has limits ? What about the old adage about “If you’re not part of the solution… you’re part of the problem ?” Not that I expect anyone to stick their necks out in this administration… if people like Powell don’t do it.
At least different from Vietnam I don’t think the military will get the big share of the blame for losing Iraq… but they will get part of it and they deserve to do so in many ways. Sorry to be blunt… but the “military” haven’t done much to stop this mess from happening or dictating what is acceptable IMO. (Naturally not many wanted to see beyond the invasion…)
Well Airman… I have to admit your quite admirable… really like your posts.
Harborwolf nailed it.
I can see why you might not like it. However, any thread that contains as thoughtful and insightful a post such as Airman Doors a few posts up from your oh-so-worthy contribution is quite valuable.
Airman Doors, thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts. I appreciate the difficult position that you are in, and I do not mean to push you to make comments that you are unable to make. My only other response to your post would be to suggest that there are not likely many people at all who are antagonistic to the military. One thing that is evident from this thread is that folks who have served seem to be particularly sensitive to criticism. (Is this a change from the old days, when veterans didn’t seem to be so sensitive?)
I am bitterly angry at our administration, at the decisions that were made and the lies that were told. I am bitterly angry at those who blindly supported and defended these actions. I am sadly disappointed at the millions who voted to allow this administration to continue unabated. I suspect that many feel the same way. I haven’t run into anyone who is hostile towards the military.
As we prepare for the holidays, I can’t help but think about the thousands and thousands of families who are going to have the worst holidays of their lives.
I’m avoiding being called-up in the Guard by safely hiding out in the Reserves! 
Well… from my experience in Iraq you would be one in a million. EVERYONE I met wanted to go home. I didn’t meet ANYONE who volunteered to be forward deployed once they shut my base down. The fact is the Army (Guard and Active Duty) are having retention problems not because they are going to Iraq but because you have to spend a year and a half in Iraq. You don’t see the same retention problems in the AF (Hell, they are actually cutting people out) even though almost half my squadron was in Iraq because it is only for 4 months.
Except that the active duty Army isn’t having retention problems, as I noted above.
I thought that some of the retention rates were artificially high due to stop-loss.
According to this stop-loss is affecting close to 10,000 soldiers.
Stop loss wouldn’t account for the record number of reenlistments I remarked upon above.
On a somewhat related note, I’ve seen a huge number of blogs, letters, and so forth from soldiers saying they they’re glad to be there, even if it is long and hard, because they feel like they’re making a real difference.
I haven’t seen much to contrary, and certainly nothing along the lines of Aldebaran’s message. It no, of course, a scientific poll or anything, but it’s evidence of one sort or another.