Hey, BlackKnight, ya cheap fuck!

[Darwin_s_Finch]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
**Now tell me Finch did I have a right to get upset? Or should I have just shrugged my shoulders and thought “ah well, shit happens.” If you think the latter, than perhaps you should go for sainthood, because I didn’t have those zen like qualities at the time. :rolleyes: **

Nowhere did I say people don’t have the right to get angry. I never said people had to like it. I just don’t see this as being worth six pages of fist-shaking ire about man’s inhumanity toward man, or the labelling of folks who don’t tip on occassion as effectively scum of the earth.

Just about everyone, in every job, probably does work for which they go unrecognized or unrewarded on occassion. Servers are by no means unique in that respect. So, if one is able to make a decent living working tables, despite the occassional non-tipper, then, honestly, what is the deal? If it were consistent, and it started cutting into your ability to earn a living, then I can understand the righteous fury.

All I can say that if it does your constitution good to get worked up over such things, well, who am I to tell you not to. I most likely would get worked up about it as well, if it happened to me (I frequently agonize over things well out of proportion to their actual effect, and it certainly does me no good), which is why I made a deliberate decision not to put myself in that sort of situation.

Again, my position is not that non-tipping is acceptable, but that it is to be expected. Rather than giving oneself an aneuryism over it, go pet a kitty or play with a puppy or something. You’ll probably live longer.

[lezlers]

Ah, the mandatory term of service for everyone. I agree wholeheartedly. I said that through my entire 8 year tenure as a server, and I still say it today.

And Shrew, no one is saying it’s illegal to not tip. Everyone has agreed that strictly speaking, it’s voluntary. People here are simply saying that it’s just what you do. There are a lot of unspoken rules in society. Saying please and thank you, tipping your server, saying something in response when someone says “hello” , waiting in line vs. pushing your way to the front. Most people follow these unofficial rules. Some don’t. The ones who don’t are generally considered assholes. Just because there’s not an official written law about it doesn’t make you any less of an asshole for not doing it. That’s all anyone is saying.

[LolaCocaCola]

And yet I agree with Blackknight. Not only that, but I think people in this thread have been unreasonable regarding what he does with his money. A tip is voluntary; it just is. If and when the food industry begins putting the service charge on the bill, it will cease to be voluntary, but until that day I will not judge someone based on what they do with their money.

But, I will. If he knows that a tip is the waiter’s salary, and he still “occasionally” knowingly doesn’t leave a tip even if the service was good, I consider him morally bankrupt, therefore I will judge him on it – hence this pit thread. I didn’t say I was going to throw his ass in jail because he comitted a crime - I said he was a cheap fuck.

If I pay a bill, leave no tip, and walk out, the restaurant will not stop me. They will not make me wash dishes until I’ve worked off my debt.

How much do you wanna bet? No, they won’t make you wash the dishes, but many a fine establishment will have the manager stop you and ask if there was something wrong with the service because it is customary to leave a tip. Once again, you won’t be thrown in jail because you say “Well, the service was fine, I just didn’t feel like it,” but it does make you look like a complete and utter asshole, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you have difficulty getting a reservation next time you want to dine there, never mind good service.

I never condemned him for breaking a crime, but like in most situations in life, if you behave like an asshole, expect to be called on it. (and of course, he has every right to respond back however he sees fit - and he obviously has).

While a tip is technically voluntary, I think most of us in civilized society are fully aware that this is the waiter’s bread and butter and wouldn’t dream of stiffing them unless the service was atrocious, and even then some of us leave a tip because working without a salary is basically slavery, wouldn’t you agree?

[lezlers]

*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch *
**Nowhere did I say people don’t have the right to get angry. I never said people had to like it. I just don’t see this as being worth six pages of fist-shaking ire about man’s inhumanity toward man, or the labelling of folks who don’t tip on occassion as effectively scum of the earth. **

Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t see that gun pointed towards your head making you read through this entire thread. It’s called “venting.” I didn’t realize you had to meet specific critera in order to do it. :rolleyes:

All I can say that if it does your constitution good to get worked up over such things, well, who am I to tell you not to. I most likely would get worked up about it as well, if it happened to me (I frequently agonize over things well out of proportion to their actual effect, and it certainly does me no good), which is why I made a deliberate decision not to put myself in that sort of situation.

Well good for you. That’s why I got myself out of the service industry. People that don’t tip still bug me though because I’ve been there. I still feel the need to inform people that are totally ignorant of the importance of tipping. Do I now have your permission to do so? And since you’ve admitted that you too agonize over things well out of proportion to their actual effect (using your words) isn’t your little finger wagging in this thread a bit hypocritical?

**

Again, my position is not that non-tipping is acceptable, but that it is to be expected. Rather than giving oneself an aneuryism over it, go pet a kitty or play with a puppy or something. You’ll probably live longer. **

Um, no one is having an aneuryism here. It’s called fighting ignorance. Kinda the reason we’re all here?:wally

[Darwin_s_Finch]

Any ignorance being fought on this issue is being done in GQ, GD, and on the first page or so of this thread. The rest is name calling, belittling and an attempt to shame those who don’t tip into doing so. I’m sure everyone will comply now that they’ve been enlightened so.

But, hey, what do I know, I’m just a :wally. Some people are bound and determined to be angry at that which they have no control over, I guess. Sorry I interrupted you “venting”.

[shrew]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
And Shrew, no one is saying it’s illegal to not tip. Everyone has agreed that strictly speaking, it’s voluntary.

If we can all agree it’s voluntary, then why the fuss? If I’m going to be judged by strangers or have my service altered/revoked based on my decision, then it’s not strictly voluntary; it’s extortion.

People here are simply saying that it’s just what you do.

Just because it’s expected, doesn’t mean you’re an asshole for not doing it. Rude perhaps, inconsiderate perhaps, even tacky, but an asshole? Assholery has a deeper meaning to me. If I accused every person who has ever queue jumped ahead of me or neglected to say Excuse Me of being an asshole, I’d have to quit my day job to pencil them all in.

*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola *
Many a fine establishment will have the manager stop you and ask if there was something wrong with the service because it is customary to leave a tip.

I’ve never seen this. I’ll trust you and believe that it occurs, but I’ve simply never seen it. I certainly wouldn’t return to a restaurant that I witnessed doing it.

Once again, you won’t be thrown in jail because you say “Well, the service was fine, I just didn’t feel like it,” but it does make you look like a complete and utter asshole, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you have difficulty getting a reservation next time you want to dine there, never mind good service.

I don’t care if I look like an asshole or not, it’s my money. I give it because I want to, not because I’m going to be bullied into doing so.

and even then some of us leave a tip because working without a salary is basically slavery, wouldn’t you agree?

Comparing waitressing to slavery? Do you really want to do that? Wait staff agree to work a job that has an unpredictable income. Slaves got shit. Let’s not do that analogy, please, out of sheer respect for intellectual integrity.

[Audrey_Levins]

Guinastasia, it is illegal to make a server pay for a table that walked their tab, but it’s kind of a rock-and-a-hard-place b/c you can either

a.) Pay the walked tab,

b.) Get written up and/or

c.) eventually lose your job over it. (Every waiter has tables that walk. If you didn’t pay their tab, and you got written up over it X 3, losing your job over it is inevitable.)

A few managers/owners are more generous than that, and will cover it without repercussions, but they’re not common. Their attitude is, “Hey, they paid in cash; how do I know you didn’t just need eighty bucks? Making you pay it keeps you honest and prevents you from trying it.”

The staff at a lot of places I work will take up a collection for someone whose table walked; every server will chip in what they can to cover the tab, and even include a tip, so that the server doesn’t lose all their money that night trying to cover the tab. And yes, I think it’s pretty sad that everyone in the restaurant but the management is ready and willing to cover a walked tab for their fellow server, but that’s usually the way the cookie crumbles.

I used to work at a restaurant with a huge and popular patio; it was very easy to walk your tab on that patio because I had to go in-and-out in order to get you your food/drinks/etc., so there was no way I could keep an eye on my tables at all times. Especially on busy nights. I was/am well aware that some people think dining and dashing is a funny prank, like shoplifting a small item at Wal-Mart just for the hell of it, but no other business I know makes the employees pay for theft like this and anyone who has ever dined-and-dashed deserves a warmer than usual place in hell. Because I had a table of two fifty-something guys with a sixty dollar tab just vanish from their table one night; my manager had run their food out, so he’d seen them, and he flat-out “didn’t think guys like that would walk their tab,” so he didn’t believe me when I said they did.

So I worked that whole shift to cover their fucking tab, b/c I didn’t want the write-up, and yeah, I was in a foul mood, and no, not many people in my section got particularly good service that night b/c I was trying really hard not to cry the whole time.

And laugh all you like, but it’s the memory of nights like that that make not tipping someone a virtual impossibility for me. I’ve had off days at work, I’ve had days where nothing goes right and everything goes to hell, and in spite of myself I’m just not functioning on all four cylinders…and people have still tipped me. Sometimes really well.

And I think it’s important to pass that on.

[Guinastasia]

Oh, I know. I just wonder what happens if you say, “Um, no, by law, you can’t do that.”

Yeah, I know, they can laugh. It just angers me so much, the crap that people get away with.

[LolaCocaCola]

For Shrew:

I certainly wouldn’t return to a restaurant that I witnessed doing it.

And I am sure you won’t be missed.

I don’t care if I look like an asshole or not, it’s my money. I give it because I want to, not because I’m going to be bullied into doing so.

Good. You have the right to do that just like I have the right to call you an asshole if you do. But do you agree the server deserves a tip if they’ve done their job well? If yes, I don’t know why we’re having this discussion, if not - then include your name in the title of this OP.

Comparing waitressing to slavery? Do you really want to do that? Wait staff agree to work a job that has an unpredictable income. Slaves got shit. Let’s not do that analogy, please

OK, we won’t then. But what would you call expecting someone to work for you without paying them, then? Let us not forget your tip is their salary.

[lezlers]

If you say that it’s illegal most likely they’ll say “fine, you’ll get written up.” And that’s that. They can write you up for anything they damn well please. It sucks. I’ve gotten written up for refusing to pay someone’s tab before. That would be the same place I quit immediately after.

And Shrew I’d like to know what your point is. Are you trying to say no one should be upset when people don’t tip? Rude inconsiderate and tacky i’ve always equated with assholery ways. Perhaps your defination of asshole differs from mine? Or are you in the Finch “put up or shut up” camp? Yes it’s voluntary, and no, if you don’t do it (for good or adequate service) you’re not a nice person. Period. Anyone who would intentionally stiff their server b/c they “didn’t feel like” tipping, is an asshole. YMMV. Everyone knows that servers make their livings off tips. To intentionally withold the very thing they’re providing their services to you for, for no other reason than it’s not required, isn’t right. No matter how much you try to justify not doing it. I just don’t understand why so many people on this thread are fighting this. Yes, it is voluntary. It is also a “social rule.” Too many people nowadays are ignoring social rules, and the world is not a happier and nicer place because of it.

And Finch, are you sure you tip? I’m not understanding why you have such a problem with servers and X servers venting about not tippers in a venting forum. You seem to almost be taking it personally.

[lezlers]

I just thought of a little analogy. You know those homeless people who’ll wash your windshield for a buck? You can kind of look at non tipping as a car pulling up, the homeless person walking up to the windshield and asking if they can clean it. You say yes. No, they didn’t say “for a buck” but if anyone says they didn’t know they’d be expected to give them something for doing it is nothing but a damn liar. So anyways, he or she cleans your windowshield all nice and shiny, then you say “thanks” and drive off, not giving them anything. After all, the buck was a voluntary thing, the person wasn’t required to give it.

I sure don’t know any nice, considerate people who would do that.

[MLS]

lezlers,
Well, no. You didn’t go up to the intersection for the specific purpose of having your windshield sloshed with dirty water. If you go into a restaurant you expect to be served.

Besides, what the squeegee guys do is first slosh suds on your windshield and then if you give them a buck they will wipe it off with a greasy rag. That’s not exactly analogous.

[LolaCocaCola]

Oh, and I do need to address this little comment by you, Shrew:

Just because it’s expected, doesn’t mean you’re an asshole for not doing it. Rude perhaps, inconsiderate perhaps, even tacky, but an asshole? Assholery has a deeper meaning to me. If I accused every person who has ever queue jumped ahead of me or neglected to say Excuse Me of being an asshole, I’d have to quit my day job to pencil them all in.

I consider someone who is messing with someone’s livelihood a true asshole, jumping ahead of me in line would fall more into the “inconsiderate” or “rude” category.

I can’t even believe you’re serious about that one!

[lezlers]

MLS I knew there would be someone who couldn’t resist tearing that one apart. I’m not saying it’s a mirror situation, i’m putting forth the closest thing I could think of. If you said “yes” that meant you wanted your windshield cleaned. IN MY ANALOGY. That’s why I specified that you said yes in the analogy. I’m not assuming the homeless person already sprayed down your window. You gotta work with me here.

[tdn]

*Originally posted by MLS *
**Besides, what the squeegee guys do is first slosh suds on your windshield and then if you give them a buck they will wipe it off with a greasy rag. That’s not exactly analogous. **

I’m just picturing MLS serving me a nice juicy steak, sloshing suds on it, then wiping it with a dirty rag.

No tip for you, and I’m not coming back to this restaurant ever again.

[lezlers]

And yeah, you go into the resterant with the specific purpose of being served, but anyone who’s lived in this country longer than 6 months knows that servers make their living off of tips, and that is why the food is cheaper than it would otherwise be. That’s basic freakin’ knowledge. So you’re going into the resteraunt knowing that you’ll be served by someone who is serving you for the purpose of recieving a tip much like the homeless person is washing the windsheild for the purpose of recieving a buck. Get it now?

[look_ninjas]

This quote from the first page of the thred bugs me:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola *
{Lola is quoting Amarone…

[quote]
The one person I’ve never tipped, although I’ve often seen advice to do so, is the maid at an hotel. That is a job that really doesn’t seem to merit a tip - and it is so easy not to when you never see them. Is a maid’s pay expected to include tips? I’ve asked a few people and not found anyone else who leaves tips for the maid.**
QUOTE]

(deep breath) In the average working day, a maid could very easily have to deal with a room full of fruit flies (curiously enough, with no discernable fruit anywhere); a shattered shower door and a bathroom covered in tiny pieces of glass; a carpet full of some kind of grease used in maintaining a bicycle (all I know is, it was black); a mirror covered in Magic Marker; and of course, the standard human blood, semen, urine, and feces. Not to mention the thousands of short curly hairs the maid is cleaning off the bathroom floor, toilet seat, and tub and shower surfaces (also sometimes the sink, and stranger places). Tip the damn maid!

And while you’re at it, don’t leave your snotty (or worse) kleenex under the pillow for us to find, and quit dropping cigarettes in the toilet.

[Zenster]

Good grief!

This thread is out to six pages?!? Disputing the validity of tipping?

Forgive me for not reading all the way through this thread.

One question;

Black Knight, have you ever worked in the food service industry?

You can see, from all of the informative posts here, that the wages are shit. I think employers who expect their workers to make up for minuscule pay with their tips are pond scum. However, that is the way things have been for a long, long time.

Do you know how hard average wait staff work for their living? Do you understand how exhausting it is to be on your feet all day? Have you ever had to interact with the great unwashed on an everyday basis?

Fuck almighty. Please answer these questions. If you have already, please quote post them here. I’d appreciate that. I happen to be a pretty damn good chef, at least that’s what other restaurant workers have told me. Do you know how much they want to pay me for being on my feet for nearly ten hours a day? Ten fucking lousy dollars an hour!!! Do you even think it’s possible to survive (even living single) in Silicon Valley earning ten fucking measley dollars an hour? Mind you, they want you in place by six in the morning and the soups better be on tap by nine o’clock or all Hell will break loose. Lunch breaks? Fergeddaboutit! If you can sit down for more than fifteen minutes without something in the kitchen going off the rails or melting down, consider yourself lucky. Someone doesn’t show up for their shift? Do you think they’ll hire a temporary worker for the day? Do you think they even could if they wanted to (which they don’t)?

NO! Everyone just gets to shoulder the missing person’s work. Why the Hell do you think I work in the high tech sector? Even though I absolutely love to cook, I can make triple what I made as a chef and do less taxing work that is much more rewarding spiritually. Is any of this getting through to you?

I’ll venture one guess.

There is a snowball’s chance in Hell that you’ll ever get married to a waitress.

[Ashkicker]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t making a server pay for Dine and Dashers or part of the meal illegal? I believe it’s against labor laws. (Of course, a lot of bosses get away with it, from what I understand). **

Audrey Levins covered everything in her above post and nailed it right on the head. I really couldn’t add anymore to her comments. Other than the other night I haven’t ever had to pay for someones dinner, but I know a few others that have. I was just fortunate enough that it was only $8 instead of $80. I take that back. I have given out the wrong bill before and had to make up the difference in that way. That’s another sucky situation. :mad:

I did want to say a big Thank You to all of those in this thread that have stuck up for us servers. I am not very good with words, but I have found myself reading some of your replies and thinking you said it best.

[Darwin_s_Finch]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
**And Finch, are you sure you tip? I’m not understanding why you have such a problem with servers and X servers venting about not tippers in a venting forum. You seem to almost be taking it personally. **

Nope, not taking it personally (other than the twisting of my argument and intent, which I do take personally). I was just foolish enough to think that lending some perspective might be of use. It obviously wasn’t.

Happy venting!