Ahem.
I always tip, unless it’s exceptionally poor service. They’ve pretty much got to run over my food with a dirty backhoe to not get a tip. I usually tip at least 15%.
I always tip my hairdresser. He is an amazing hairdresser, and I like to keep him happy.
I always always always tip the maid! She has the crappiest of crappy jobs! I usually leave $5 per day that I’ve stayed there, up to $20.
Insults are the lowest form of debate. Undoubtedly I won’t be missed, but it only takes one person to spread bad publicity.
We’re having this discussion because of the out-and-out vitriol coming from your and others’ fingers simply because Blackknight has a different opinion regarding tipping than you all do. Absolutely, waitresses deserve a tip if they do their job well. Likewise, human beings get to decide what to do with their own money without judgment from others. I don’t see you screaming at people who visit legal brothels, claiming that it “takes a livelihood” away from pimps. Blackknight’s money is his own, and he can do with it what he pleases. You all just seem pissed that someone dares to disagree with you. Blackknight has maintained his composure throughout this pitting, even being acquiescent in places. Some of you have not.
Waitresses do make a wage, albeit a small one. I’ve never met one who worked for free.
As to the window-washing analogy, maybe I could see that analogy if a server did indeed walk up and say, “I am willing to be your server for 15% the cost of your meal. Is that agreeable to you?” But he/she doesn’t. Service is part of the meal. I tip because I am a polite person, not because it’s required.
See the above post for my point. Yes, people should not be upset. People should mind their own business.
Yes, our definitions of asshole differ. I consider spousal abusers, child exploiters, etc. to be assholes. People who don’t tip are simply frugal and/or cheap. That’s their choice. It may not be a lifestyle I choose, but if I believe in giving people freedom to make their own decisions, I have to also allow that people will make different choices than my own.
Well, see, we’re torn between this admonition to follow social rules and then simultaneously not be “sheep”. If you truly desire to be in control of your own decisions, then you must question why you do each and every act. It’s not that I necessarily want to take money from other people…in fact that would seriously harm my delicate balance in life, but I simply want to know why I do it. If I do it because everyone else does it, then that’s an act I need to question.
Shrew:
You must be quite the delicate flower if you consider that an insult! The fact is, you WON’T be missed. Suck it up.
You asked me not to compare working for no salary to slavery - How about you not compare waiters to pimps?!?
Why don’t you read the thread and learn a little - we have established that the meager salary that a waiter earns is eaten by taxes, so unless he gets his tip, he earns nothing.
You know, for all the vitriol you claim we’re spewing, for someone who claims they tip heavily, you sure are bending over backwards defending someone who declines to do something even you agree they should be doing in the first place.
Verrrrrrry interesting.
Fair enough, but realize you’ve been the rude one here, not me. If rudeness is equal to assholery, as has been stated, I’m not the asshole here. And before anyone says, “This is the pit. Get over it,” geography should not dictate form. If being an “asshole” is socially unacceptable, then it’s socially unacceptable everywhere.
Sure.
I read the entire thread. I’ve also lived off of tips in the past. I cannot begrudge people for not giving me what is rightfully theirs.
Defending someone you agree with is easy. Defending someone you disagree with is a much nobler cause.
Shrew:
With regard to the rudeness issue, unfortunately sometimes shaming someone is highly effective. Particularly with people who feel justified in their unacceptable behavior. Since I have waitressed in the past and have friends in the service indusrty, I take this stuff very personally. And, yes, this is the pit and a place for people to air their frustrations, usually not in a flowery manner.
Right. Cuz there is nothing more noble than messing with someone’s livelihood after they’ve busted their ass all night to make your dining experience a pleasurable one.
pats you on the back
Shame shouldn’t even be used with children. It’s cruel and unnecessary, but that’s JMHO.
I waitressed for several years, and my sister served for 11. I care about it as well, which is why I tip heavily. I cannot, however, use my personal decision to justify being an “asshole” to others who choose differently than I do.
Not a logical response. You asked me why I am defending him, I told you. You state it’s not noble to stiff someone when I’ve clearly stated I tip. If you don’t like my reasoning for defending him, okay, but don’t suddenly decide that I don’t tip…when I’ve clearly, again, stated that I do.
To the left a bit…ah, right there.
Oops, pardon moi…
Right. Cuz there is nothing more noble than DEFENDING someone who is messing with someone’s livelihood after they’ve busted their ass all night to make your dining experience a pleasurable one.
Shame on them and shame on you!
snicker
I don’t know who dubbed you the Shame Police, but they should feel ashamed.
Dear Shrew:
No-one’s saying you should shame children! - only adults who know better and refuse to do the right thing! And this is a message board where you can vent your frustrations - do you think half the stuff we vent in the pit is said in the real world??? No - this is an outlet. Get a clue.
Honey, if I were the shame police, yer ass would’ve been in the federal pen by now!
Bwah!
An outlet for what? To rant about people who consistently don’t tip? Okay. If it makes you happy, do that. But to rant about one person who said he occasionally “forgets” is a bit on the…well…pathetic side.
Hehe. Me in prison? Penitentiary Orange isn’t really my colour.
I respect that a message board is a place for venting, but that doesn’t mean rampant assholery is allowed. I hope.
Shrew:
I think we can safely assume his feelings about tipping are somewhat more than “occasionally” forgets. I love how you omit his other criteria, such as “I only tip if I have enough money left over,” etc. And in case you haven’t noticed, this rant is not just about one person.
I think barring a few colorful metaphors, most people have been quite informative and patient in this thread. But you only choose to see what you want to see.
You are really reaching now, and it has become quite tedious. And it is Saturday morning, so I shall check back later to see what other little pearls of wisdom you have left for me.
Cheerio for now, my little defender of the ignorant world!
Calling someone a “cheap fuck” is hardly a colourful metaphor. It’s inflammatory.
I’m done with you, so flame away. Have fun, my little Shame Police. Don’t forget to tip your waiter!
How about we call it a justifiable inflammatory colorful metaphor? Or J.I.C.M. for short?
You seem to have more of a problem with the name calling than you do with deplorable behavior in social settings. And at least the name calling isn’t even done in the real world for crying out loud!
Of course you’re done with me! You obviously realized how ridiculous you sounded and had to leave to save face. And I’m not sure why you would think I would forget to tip my waiter - that really made no sense.
:: shrug ::
And stop with the “Shame Police” thing! The “Thread Police” thing already has that damn Cheap Trick song in my head .
:o
Eh? I’ve shared personal stories aobut being stiffed and so have others on this thread. How is one supposed to mind their own business when it is their own business??? I would think that the participants in this thread that are currently working for tips have more than enough right to participate. They’re the ones that the behavior of the non-tippers in this thread are affecting. Us X servers are merely backing them up.
Okay, we’ll agree to disagree with that one.
[/QUOTE]
** People who don’t tip are simply frugal and/or cheap. That’s their choice. It may not be a lifestyle I choose, but if I believe in giving people freedom to make their own decisions, I have to also allow that people will make different choices than my own. **
[/QUOTE]
And I have the choice to consider them assholes. You can’t get on my case about having an opinion on someone elses behavior via asserting that they have the right to engage in that behavior. That’s an obvious logical fallacy because I have the same right to judge them on their behavior that they have to engage in it.
There are some things in life that most people do because it’s just the right thing to do. Or it’s done for good reason. Non-conformity does have it’s drawbacks in some cases. Many social rules are in place because society is better off with them in place. Waiting in line, saying please and thank you, ect. Can we agree on that much?
In my opinion, tipping is one of those rules. The server is more prone to give better service when expecting a tip. Would you really want that bitchy cashier making minimum wage from Wal-Mart (hypothetically speaking) serving you? Tipping also keeps the cost of food down. Tipping also allows the server to make much higher than minimum wage in many cases, depending on their ability. Personally, I think tipping is a great system because it lets you control both the service you recieve (if you frequent the same establishments, as I do) and the earnings you make if you’re providing the service. If you don’t like the system thats fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, as am I. But given that the current system is not going to change any time soon, it’s best to learn how to best operate in it as it is now, or stay away from it all together.
Shrew, you say that everyone has a right to do what they want with their money. It certainly is. I will most definately agree with you on that. However, I don’t consider that a very strong argument for not tipping. Everyone knows that servers make 90% of their earnings via tips. Everyone knows that is why they are there, serving you. Witholding their tip for no other reason than you don’t want to tip them, is knowingly accepting their service for free. In that respect, very much like my windshield washing analogy. No, they’re not barganing overtly about the “service fee” but it is common knowledge, so your argument about it differing from that analogy doesn’t fly.
Wow, i’ve gone on longer than I expected. I should use all this energy to get cracking on my finals! 
Lezlers, you’ve made some excellent points.
Fair enough. I was thinking more of non-wait staff who get their feathers up in a ruffle.
Hm. Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. If being an asshole is socially unacceptable, then I think it should be socially unacceptable in all cases. Judging someone regarding tipping to the point of calling them names and berating them as ignorant qualifies as assholish/rude behaviour in my book.
Absolutely, but I do still believe social rules must be questioned. When my black students refuse to look me in the eye because “It’s just not done”, I have to stop and wonder why. I then have to decide if it’s my place to try and break them of that habit simply because it’s not part of my culture. I’m all for social rules, but I don’t wish to follow them simply because they exist.
I currently live in Europe, and I have to admit that initially I bristled at the idea of not leaving a tip, but I have become accustomed to it over time. The service is different, not better or worse, just different. What I like about the system here is that the server isn’t forced to lick my boots in order to get a tip. The service charge is often included, which means they do their job, and I pay for the service. Mostly it’s simply not expected because the servers are paid a decent wage. I’m okay with that. They don’t have to smile at me, be nice to me, or fill my drink unless I ask. That’s fair. In an ideal world, I would love to see this happen in the U.S. as well. Until it does, I’ll continue to tip.
Again, fair enough. I don’t consider not tipping enough to qualify someone as a cheap fuck.
Me too. I haven’t marked a paper all day!
Thanks for making logical coherent points, Lezlers. 
I’ve come back and found that in my absence, the general tone of the thread has increased about a dozen-fold. I’m not sure I like what that says about my presence. 
First off, I’d like to thank everyone in this thread who is responsible for that raising of tone. Especially Binarydrone, Weirddave, Darwin’s Finch, and shrew. Thanks.
I’d also like to cordially invite LolaCocaCola to suck down a shit shake with a wide straw for starting this conflagration and for continually fanning the flames.
Weirddave, thank you once again for your in-depth analysis. From what I can see, your numbers are fine. Whether or not that makes not-tipping stealing … well, I dunno. It is clear that the server is not making as much money as he would have if the customer had tipped. It is also clear that the server is not making as much money as he would have if the non-tipping customer had not eaten there at all. I can see how the server loses out. I am as yet undecided whether that should be morally considered to be stealing. (Clearly it’s not legally stealing.) This would probably make a good topic for a Great Debates thread.
While I’m thinking of it, I should state that “dining and dashing” is clearly stealing, legally and morally, no question about it.
I can understand being a bit dubious. I also understand if the server is a little bit miffed. But if they were to get as ired as Lola seems to be, well, that’s just not healthy.
Heh, if humans lived long enough I’d whole-heartedly endorse a 1-year term of mandatory service in darned near everything, including dish-washing at a truckstop and shoveling pig manure.
You funny lady.
Your “morally bankrupt” attitude is exactly the kind of exaggeration I was lampooning with my well-tipping-serial-killer comments.
I’ll have to take your word for it that such places exist. Needless to say, I’ve never been to such a place.
Yes. However, I have never waited tables.
Just as hard as I worked washing dishes, and just as hard as I will work shoveling pig shit this summer, I would assume. I know they work hard, but they do not have a monopoly on hard work, trust me.
Certainly.
Yes, since you go on to tell me: Ten dollars an hour. Ten dollars an hour around these parts is pretty good wages. A couple of friends of mine worked in a factory a couple summers back and didn’t make much more than that ($12, if I recall correctly). They did twelve hour shifts.
I have no idea. I suspect that the cost of living in Silicon Valley is quite high.
This was probably rhetorical, but no, I don’t think they’ll hire a temporary worker for the day.
Most definitely.
Less of a chance than that, actually. I don’t plan on ever marrying.
Anyway, I don’t really want to bump this thread, but I did promise that I would return. Hopefully it dies a relatively quick death.
Actually, I have another question; this time it concerns the notion of “stealing”.
As I understand it, the government assumes that every ticket for a waiter/waitress earns at least an 8% tip; because of this, the wait staff must pay an 8% tax for the assumed income even if they never receive said tip. The accusation of “stealing” from a wait staff employee if a tip has not been given has been made in this thread–whether wrongly or rightly.
So, my question is this: if the wait staff makes, on average, 15% for their nightly tips, and yet only reports 8% (if the tip is in cash, that is; I’m assuming if the tip is on a credit card, the government knows about it as earnings), isn’t the remaining 7% (like I said: on average) not reported basically “stealing” from the government? I mean, if it’s earned income and you’re not paying taxes on it, you’re breaking the law. Right?
Or, quite possibly, I’m wrong and someone could maybe point me in the correct direction? Thanks!
Well, if it isn’t the frugal gourmet again!
You mean thank everyone who mostly agrees with you??? Now there’s a shocker! And I can see where this little comment from Weirdave has you thinking the tone was raised (even though I loved it and it cracked me up!):
And I can see how you, yourself, have raised the tone with this little gem:
When you say “fanning the flames”, you mean “responding to posts,” right? I’d say this thread for the most part has been civil and informative, especially in light of the fact that this is the FUCKING PIT!!!
Believe you me, if every waiter that you stiffed in the real world was allowed to say to you what they really felt, they would be fired (unfortunately). This is why we have lovely things like message boards and pits where people can call you on your ignorant, tightwad ways and say things to you they couldn’t in the real world.
Yippee!
But ya did, Blanche, ya did!!!
:wally
Small nit: Please do not lump me in here. Read my posts. I 100% do not at any point state that it is OK not to tip (I compare it with walking around with boogers hanging out of your nose), rather I asked for some polite clarification about the process that could lead to not tipping.