Eva Luna You seem to have some problems with the word ‘hate’. Here’s the MW definition:
Main Entry: 1hate
Pronunciation: 'hAt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hete; akin to Old High German haz hate, Greek kEdos care
1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>
2 : an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business – F. L. Paxson>
Muslims are taught to hate non-muslims. Not ‘some’ muslims. Kids at the ages from 4 - 12 get to learn these things:
“I have been given orders to fight the people, to wage war with them, until they confess that Allah is the only and true god and Mohammed is his prophet”
A fatwa is being called for girls to be circumcised.
A fatwa is being called to throw homo-sexuals head first from a high building.
yojimbo Asshole is refreshing, after ‘cunt’. I don’t mind being called an asshole and , as I said, I still have my cunt. Thanks. Sadly I don’t see myself as the asshole in this.
gum.
Atheïst, longtime peace-activist, fighter for women’s rights, fighter for gay rights, and last but not least: councelor for immigrants.
Well, gum, if you are too stubborn to even investigate the possibility that there is variation in belief and practice among Muslims, in the face of large amounts of contrary evidence, as this would involve admitting that you don’t know everything about everyone, then you are simply being willfully ignorant, and I’m not inclined to waste any more time arguing with you.
Eva Luna, also a peace activist and feminist with all portions of her anatomy intact (except for that pesky left fibula, but that had nothing to do with any Muslims that I’m aware of), and as long as we’re throwing around professional credentials, M.A. whose thesis focused on issues of ethnicity in the North Caucasus, a primarily Muslim-inhabited area, former refugee job counselor, and last but definitely not least, current immigration paralegal whose desk is currently full of files for immigrants who need her attention
Well, Eva Luna I hate to break this to you, but I *have * investigated [and still do]. I see the large amount of evidence daily. If you are too stubborn [or maybe still too much in love] to see that - indeed - muslims are taught [you know, things one learns at school] to hate non-muslims, taught to mutilate their daughters, taught to murder gays, you’re willfully dense and desperately trying to follow an out-dated trend.
gum, or the zillionth time, I am willing to accept that a minority of Muslims is taught these things, and that even among those who are taught those things, some will not believe or practice them anyway. Just as a minority of Jews commit human rights abuses against Muslims, which I would certainly hope does not make anyone think I condone or support such behavior in any way because I happen to have been born into a particular ethnic background and religious tradition, and because my parents sent me to a certain Sunday school for religious instruction, which I essentially no longer follow.
I also work with and live among Muslims every day – I live in a major and highly diverse city with a large immigrant population, including many Middle Eastern and South Asian Muslims. In fact, coincidentally I had dinner last night with an elderly Iranian man who spent a large part of our discussion telling me (before I mentioned my ethnic background, by the way) how much he loves Jewish music, and how similar it is to old Iranian music. Does that sound like hate to you?
You must be hanging out with and/or reading about the wrong bunch of Muslims. Or maybe you simply refuse to believe that anyone tolerant could possibly be Muslim. I don’t know, but you sure do seem to have some serious issues with Muslims, to say the least, ones which I am not professionally qualified to diagnose.
gum:Muslims are taught to hate non-muslims. Not ‘some’ muslims. Kids at the ages from 4 - 12 get to learn these things:
“I have been given orders to fight the people, to wage war with them, until they confess that Allah is the only and true god and Mohammed is his prophet”
:rolleyes: By that reasoning, Christians—not ‘some’ Christians—are taught to hate non-Christians, because Christian children get to learn things like “If thy brother […] entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, […] thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. […] If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
Saying that all Muslims are intolerant and violent because there are some intolerant and violent passages in the Qur’an is as dumb as saying that all Christians are intolerant and violent because there are similar passages in the Bible.
gum:How many muslims would you say DO NOT condone atrocities like mutilating women’s genitalia?
Well, considering that about two-thirds of the world’s Muslims live in Indonesia and South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) where FGM is not practiced, I think it’s a safe bet that a solid majority of Muslims DO NOT condone such atrocities.
By the way, you do know that there are numerous Christian groups in Africa who also follow traditional practices of FGM, don’t you?
Are you telling me that the Muslims in the Muslim school just up the road from me here in Dublin is teaching these things. There is no female circumcision in Ireland. There have been no instances of organised Muslim attacks on gays (although there’s been plenty of Catholics doing it). There’s a Muslim family living on my floor and by god they hide that hatred very well because they and their children have been nothing but the perfect neighbors AFAIC.
Again nobody in this thread AFAICS would disagree that those things are being taught to some kids by some teachers. But I’ve seen docu’s about people indoctrinating children with all kinds of hatred doesn’t mean I condemn all of the group that they are part of.
Yes, that’s exactly what i said. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
OK, let me explain this again in the hope that your three functioning neurons can grasp the concept i’m trying to get across.
When atrocities are committed, i condemn precisely the people who commit those atrocities, and the people who support them. No more, no less. If the people who commit and/or support such atrocities make up 1% of a particular population, then i condemn that 1%. If the people who commit and/or support such atrocities make up 99% of a particular population, then i condemn that 99%.
Obviously, as the number gets closer to 100%, it becomes easier to tar all members of the group with the same brush. And, to be honest, if you could demonstrate that 90% of Muslims supported actions like the beheadings in Iraq, i’d probably conclude that this number was high enough to start talking about Islam in general.
But all we’ve been shown so far in this thread are some instances of Muslims supporting certain practices. There’s been nothing more than scattershot, anecdotal evidence. Hell, even the last story you quoted in support of your own position actually makes very clear that open support for things like female circumcision is an unusual position among Muslims in the Netherlands:
So, what do we learn from this story? We learn that, in the Netherlands, a country with over 800,000 Muslims (Sources: 1, 2), one single mosque has, for the first time ever, come out in support of female circumcision, and one imam has referred to non-Muslims as “firewood for hell.”
Gee, start the Crusade fellas, 'cause it looks like all the Muslims of Dike-Land are out to destroy the infidel. I’d use another rolleye smiley here, but i fear that your continued participation in this thread will sorely tax our reserves, so i should save some for later.
Bully for you. Does it worry you that many Christians believe that your atheism means that you’re going to hell? And if not, why should it worry you if Muslims believe the same thing?
Never said that at all.
You seem unable to grasp some of the fundamental difference between theological beliefs about the afterlife, on one hand, and actions committed in the corporeal world, on the other.
I don’t care if (some or all) Muslims believe that all non-Muslims are going to hell. Just like i don’t care if (some or all) Christians believe that all non-Christians are going to hell. Personally, i believe that we’re all going to end up just rotting in the ground. The notion that non-believers are subject to a different fate in the afterlife than believers is common to many religions. At this level of speculation, i have no problem at all with generalizations.
Where i have a problem is when generalizations are applied based on beliefs about what should happen in this life. I think it’s not only unproductive and anti-intellectual, but dangerous, to make sweeping generalizations about all adherents of a religion based on the actions of some individuals or groups. So, as i’ve said on numerous occasions, i condemn Muslim atrocities, those who commit them, and those who support them. But i refuse to condemn all Muslims, or Islam as a faith.
On the issue of wanting “good” Muslims to prove themselves by condemning the actions of their co-religionists, it would be nice if Muslims came out in direct condemnation of such actions. And they often do. A Google search of “muslims condemn” reveals many instances in which Muslims state very explicitly that they condemn terrorists acts, and that such acts do not speak for all Muslims. Here’s just one example:
Admittedly, most such condemnations come for Islamic groups in the West, in countries like the US, Canada, and in western Europe. But just because these people don’t live in the Middle East doesn’t mean they’re not Muslims.
Also, the fact that condemnations from the Middle East itself don’t show up so readily on a Google search does not necessarily mean they don’t exist. My Google searches don’t bring up results in Arabic, and even if they did i wouldn’t be able to read them. Also, just because a condemnation doesn’t appear on the internet doesn’t mean it wasn’t made. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
As should be plain to anyone with the intelligence to put one foot in front of the other, both very good and very bad actions can be, and have been, justified by appeals to religion. We should applaud the good, and condemn the bad, without falling into the trap of believing that one or the other is somehow the “true” reflection of what are generally vast and diverse global institutions.
It is also unknown or a minority practice in much of the Middle East and North Africa. Largely unknown in the Maghreb ( Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia ), practiced by a tiny minority in Libya. Not practiced or rarely practiced in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan. Not practiced in Turkey, Iran, Azerbaijan. Practiced by about a quarter of Yemen’s population ( influence across the Red Sea no doubt ) and by smaller minorities in a couple of other Arabian penninsula countries.
Where it is most prevalent is in Egypt, the Horn of Africa ( Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, northern Sudan ) and parts of West Africa ( where incidences range from virtually universal in Mali, Guinea, and Sierra Leone to ~5% in Niger ).
A type of female circumcision is practiced in some parts of Indonesia, but it is generally of the mildest type, usually involving scraping or slightly nicking the clitoris or clitoral hood to express a drop of blood.
Tamerlane, it’s my understanding that in those parts of Africa where it is still prevalent, it’s prevalent among Muslims, Christians, and Jews alike. Is this correct? If so, I’d say that’s pretty good evidence of your earlier assertion that it is more of a cultural issue (which contrary to gum’s opinion I still find to be an awful practice) than a religious one, even if a 700 year old book that can be purchased from a Muslim store outlines the practice.
http://www.marshall.edu/rst/fgm.htm
Religion is highly correlated with female circumcision. Although female circumcision is practiced by Africans of different
religions, a large percentage of circumcised women are of the Islamic faith. Even though Islam did not introduce the
practice of female genital mutilation, it is most prevalent within Islamic cultures
Tensions between Islam and European secularism are also apparent in the realm of women’s rights. If the principles of classic Islamic law hold sway, women will be reduced to second-class citizens.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, elected to the Dutch parliament in January, has criticized Islam precisely on this point. Hirsi Ali, a young Somali immigrant who considers herself an “ex-Muslim,” charges that it is Islam at its core **(not simply so-called “radical Islam”) **that is oppressive to women. She refers both to verses in the Qur’an as well as modern-day Muslim practices. For example, Sura 4:34 of the Qur’an says women should obey the male members of their families—even if, say, they are forbidden to leave their homes—and if they do not obey then the husband may beat his wife: “As for those [women] from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.” According to Hirsi Ali, there are millions of Muslim men who carry out that simple verse, beating and oppressing their women in the name of Islam. For daring to voice such a scandalous testimony, the young Somali was forced to flee her country under threat of death, becoming a latter-day Salman Rushdie. [bolding mine]
And what’s with all the opposition to asking Islamic immigrants to forgo taking a second wife in Ireland ? Is it because polygamy is “cultural” and not religious? I have it on good authority that all Muslims are not polygamous and that polygamy predates Islam. Hell, its even practiced by some Christians. Thank God that there are some restrictions in Islam after all. Apparently you are not allowed to have more the four wives at a time. Just beautiful…If you are a man I suppose. An insensitive selfish idiot to be more specific.
Just what is the penalty in Islam for more than four wives? Beheading?
[QUOTE=DMC]
Tamerlane, it’s my understanding that in those parts of Africa where it is still prevalent, it’s prevalent among Muslims, Christians, and Jews alike. Is this correct?
/QUOTE]
Yep, with the exception that it was rare and may be in the process of dieing out among Jews. The only Jews that regularly practiced FGM were the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia ( there are some ~60-70,000 of them ). It is also practiced by some animist groups in Africa.
While it is certainly correct to say that FGM is practiced by a larger proportion of Muslims than Christians, it is still very much a minority tradition in both faiths. The practice is pretty ancient and the most extreme version probably originated in ancient Egypt and spread from there ( mummies have been found with ‘Pharonic Circumcision’ ).
If there was on this message board for the past few weeks a thread where points that could form interesting topics of discussion are killed on forehand by people who think “they know”, it must be this thread.
FGM = Islamic ?
The writings of the founder of one of the Islamic Lawschools = commanding FGM ?
**Al Qur’an ** = commanding FGM ?
I must go back to school. By the way, can you send me that rewritten Qur’an because all mine must be missing these most important pages. (I’m now extremely concerned about the state - and the worth - of the copies in my library. Not to mention the state and worth of the copies in all the other libraries I know of.)
We also have the “towel heads” mentioned… Sorry, can’t post a picture here to show you which style of towel I wear, but the odd thing is that my head does not look like a towel even with the towel on it. Maybe it is time someone gives a detailed description and explaination of this popular expression “towel head”, because I don’t get seem to get the correct meaning. (Maybe it is to say that my brain is a towel? Can someone help me out here? )
What else have we thrown in here to support the OP’s attempt to paint once more Islam as The Barbaric Religion and Muslims as the Barbaric Killing Savages?
Yes! We have once again mentioned some idiot in The Netherlands (hint to gum: try to find an other one, yuo always post the same which gets boring).
We have Polygamy!
We have a lot of Ohter Most Interesting Barbaric Things!
Then as expected Tamerlane and quite a few other members made a courageuos attempt to educate The Ignorants, and to which I could ad/correct quite a few things. Yet I don’t feel for it to make such an effort in a thread like this and especially not on this forum.
As I said: All issues that came up here can be good topics for debate. So if you are really trying to make a point and think you know it all and you have it right, then go to GD and make threads about them. When you receive correct information coming from correct Islamic sources - and their exegeses/interpretation - you shall have something to debate on. Because then you have something to compare with your perception/idea’s of the issue.
Salaam. A
Some relevant quotes (bolding mine in all instances):
While this is a depressingly large number, figures suggest that FGM is not practiced among anywhere near a majority of Muslims.
According to the CIA Fact Book, the world’s population is currently at 6.38 billion, and Muslims account for about 19.7%. This give a total of about 1.25 billion Muslims (This site actually gives a figure of 1.48 billion). The global gender balance is almost exactly 50/50 (actually, 1.01 males per female), so we can reasonably estimate that there are, at an absolute minimum, 600 million Muslim females in the world.
So, even if every single girl and woman in the whole world who has been a victim of FGM is Muslim (and this, as we shall see, is NOT the case), that would still mean that the rate of FGM among Muslims is less than 25%.
So, let’s be clear:
[ul][li]custom and tradition are more important than religion in maintaining the practice of FGM[/li][li]most Muslims don’t practice FGM[/li][li]the Qur’an makes no call for FGM[/li][li]opponents of FGM deny that there is any link between FGM and Islam[/li][li]where FGM is practised by Muslims, this practice relies on differing interpretations of the words of Mohammed[/li][li]some Christians have been known to turn a blind eye to FGM in order to keep converts [/li][/ul] Sorry, but while this evidence suggests that FGM is practices by some Muslims, and is sometimes justified by them in religious terms, it does not suggest that FGM is only a “Muslim problem,” and it explicitly refutes the notion that most Muslims follow the practice.
Even if most practitioners of FGM are Muslim, that doesn’t really tell us very much about the faith as a whole, because the fact that most practitioners of FGM are Muslim does not mean that most Muslims are practitioners of FGM. Similarly, while most serial killers are men, this does not mean that most men are serial killers.
No, just don’t cut too much because the enjoyment of the husband might be affected. Fuck, are you not reading this whole thread? Why do I have to repeat myself?!
Don’t bother, it appears you wouldn’t learn a damn thing anyway.
Unless you can tell me where in this thread those words come up I’m going to have to call you a bold faced liar!
Yah, I can understand where you’re coming from. After all the “idiot” is a woman, a mutilated woman, who is fighting back against the very religion that mutilated her. What you gonna do. Put a Fatwa out to give her 100 lashes?! The nerve of this female eh?
Of course, you know more than anyone else. I think you’re the only “believer” around here.
