again, because someone does not agree on the definition of a word does not mean they feel it represents a feeling someone is less than full adult.
Just to be clear, I should have said “completely unlearn”, because I have certainly “unleaded” a lot of it. But yeah, you definitely have more skin in the game than I do.
Just as an example, when the idea of SSM first came into the news back in the 1990s, my first reaction was: That’s ridiculous. Why would gays want to get married, and why should that institution be changed to accept SS couples. But, after some thought and discussion it was quite clear why we should make the change.
This objection would actually be true if it were applied to a word other than “marriage”. Like, for example, “pineapples”.
If gay people want to feel the worlds against them then that is the reality that will play through their daily lives.
I don’t presume there aren’t people who don’t like gay people but I disagree with the op’s premise.
I’ll leave you to your thread.
I never thought that marriage was required for full adult hood. Especially since in most states, iirc, sub 18s can get legally married.
Necessary but not sufficient, let’s say: Being able to get married alone doesn’t mean you’re a full adult, but being unable to get married means you’re certainly not a full adult in the eyes of the law and society.
And Magiver’s reaction is one of the reasons I love threads like these: People get so huffy when you apply some logic and, basically, connected thinking (this implies that, which implies t’other…) to their Cherished Beliefs. It’s becoming clear to me that the nastiest trick you can play on someone is to give them a forum in which to defend their Cherished, Closely-Held, Obviously True Beliefs; after that, picking them apart and shattering their entire worldview for the entire world to view is just too easy. It’s much more difficult to destroy a philosophy which is allowed to remain in the realm of gut feelings and knee-jerk reactions.
Emotion vs reason? I think people overestimate reason. And in an organism that is the product of billions of years of evolution does it make sense to think that a human brain is capable of pure reason?
I wish I could say the same. I didn’t come out to my parents until I was in my early 40’s (of course, they already knew, and were ok with it, although they didn’t really want to talk about anything such as what it was like for me to grow up that way). I am married but I have a hard time referring to “my husband.” I spent all of my formative years hiding who I really was, and as a result my ability to deal with people on a social level is shot to hell.
[QUOTE=River Hippie]
…because I grew up in a time and place where being a “fag” was the worst possible thing you could be…there is a thing deep inside me that fears being associated with that.
[/QUOTE]
Right. Understood. Now imagine, with all those same associations, you know that you are that. What do you do? How do you feel?
Thank you for that, but we didn’t need a demonstration.
Another gay guy saying I’m not sure I can unlearn it completely. I really appreciate the honesty of the straight people in the thread.
I could have written River Hippie’s post when I was 20.
[QUOTE=River Hippie]
In my head I am 100% LGBTQ friendly. But, because I grew up in a time and place where being a “fag” was the worst possible thing you could be…there is a thing deep inside me that fears being associated with that. At work, when gay related topics come up, I try to always present, to the best of my ability, the pro gay side of things. But…I’m always thinking “are they thinking I’m gay?”
[/QUOTE]
I’ve been out for over half my life. Still, replace “gay” with “too gay,” and you have my current fear. Which I acknowledge intellectually is completely fucking ridiculous.
I really admire people like panache45 who are beyond that.
Yes, we are capable of pure reason, given that mathematics and abstract logic in general exists. We might not be perfect at applying it to scenarios like this one, but we are capable of pure logic.
Lesbian contribution:
River H., I also believe that my very best and most supportive friends and colleagues (who are mostly the same folks) have moments of discomfort when topics turn to Teh Gay, especially when the topic is about physical intimacy. Sometimes she makes an rather abrupt conversation non-sequiter along the lines of, “well my HUSBAND says that most Dalmation dogs are deaf!” 
:rolleyes:
Heck, I have my own moments of homophobia. Virtually all humans are raised in a heterosexual normative environment – it would be weird if these kinds of thoughts didn’t occur. What I can’t wrap my head around is the kind of hate that propels straight folks to legislate against my basic human rights to marry and have other civil rights.
Oh Lordy, me too! Do you remember the little bon mot from a General Authority who said (paraphrase) “I’d rather have my son come home from Vietnam(?) in a casket than as a live homosexual.” To be utterly unhelpful, it was one of those whitetiest-white, hideously pious old men with jowls and black horn rim glasses.
I was in HS in the early ‘80s in Utah and, oddly enough, there were a LOT of GLBT kids – both out and quasi-out in the "everyone knows but we ain’t sayin’ nothin’ 'cuz it will go away when little Willie/Wilma go on their mission to Vermont."
I escaped the state the day I turned 18; many of my fellow gay and lesbian friends who didn’t leave are pretty damaged due to the noxious “love the sinner blah blah” position of the Church (a high rate of substance abuse, mental illness, and hyper-sexuality).
Luckily, my mother had a messy divorce in the late 1980s and when our Ward sided with my abusive POS dad, she said “fuck it!” and left the faith. She’s a staunch defender of gay rights, loves my wife, and has hosted several gay weddings in her backyard for some of her LGBTQ friends and co-workers.
I reject this. Everyone around me told me that being gay was awful, but as soon as I figure out what being gay means (which is roughly 8-10 years old), my first reaction was “so what?” and “who cares whom they love – people are people”. I don’t think that people raised in a homophobic culture are automatically homophobic at a deep down level.
Hello! (wave, wave) Another straight male wading in here…
In order to prop something up, you must tear something down. For my team to win, the other team has to lose. My town is best. My country is best. My heritage is best. My sports teams are the best. My religion is the best. (Did you know that there are over 40,000 different denominations of Protestantism?) My company is the best. My department is the best. My language is the best. and on and on and on. It’s bloody tiring after a while.
Well, one day in my youth, I realized that I was wrong about religion. And… virtually everyone that I knew was wrong about religion. And, if I could be that staggeringly wrong about something to monumentally important, well, maybe I should keep a more open mind about most of the bigger issues in life.
And, hey, I learned a lot - and am still learning a lot. Learning is an active process. You have to want to do it. Most people don’t. They just install a default opinion. They have a little box that says, “What is the best (American) football team?” They have “Cleveland Browns” scribbled on a piece of paper in that box for absolutely no good reason. And… it’s just not going to change.
And, if I may take a moment to tell a silly story… As I said above, I am a straight male. I once had a straight female coworker who was normally very nice, but one day made a point of bashing on homosexuals. I looked across my folder of papers, and said, “I have f*cked more men than you have.” She couldn’t respond. But, somehow, in the weeks that followed, she was much closer to me than ever before. It was really odd.
And, marriage can generate financial and socio-economic security. I filed as a married couple for the first time ever this year and got the highest tax return I’ve ever had.
To (badly) paraphrase Ellen DeGeneres: “Those opposed to gay marriage think it’s about the right to marry a goat. But what if I don’t want to marry a goat??”
It took me a while reading through the comments to work out what you were talking about.
I sucks to be stuck in a part of the world where bigotry is still seen as acceptable.
Things tend to look different from here in Vermont. I can’t think of the last time a homosexual relationship was even worthy of comment. The last two couples my wife and I have had as close friends were same sex.
We got civil unions 16 years ago and were the first state where the legislature approved same sex marriage without a court order to do so in 2009.
The winters are a little on the chilly side so you may not want to move here permanently but you should at least come out for a visit. It really is a different world from most of the rest of the US when it comes to this subject.
Because you are not … not all of you. Are all white people good, or racists? Are all black people lazy?
I guess I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. I think the idea should be “We’re just normal people like any other group.” That’s achievable IMO, and I think simply living your lives out of the closet means progress is being made. And contributing to legal defense funds and campaigns to counter anti-LGBT legislation would be helpful fighting bigotry on a broader scale.
I have no idea how you as an individual can change the mind of some other particular individual unrepentant racist.
This can include something good you’ve done, heard, or seen. I got a message from someone on Facebook saying that they found my employee name tag and he dropped it at the subway loss and found. Although it’s just a tag, I’m surprised and grateful he was able to put in the effort to find me online to let me know he found it.
The new brand of tea bags I’m using (STASH brand) make five cups per single bag.
(Hey, when you’re poor, that kind of thing is nice.)