Ahh, many thanks for that correction. That’ll teach me to be absolutist.
Not only do I agree with the above, but I also submit that Hezbollah (as opposed to the common Lebanese) has all kinds of winding paths and crossings – rat passages, I believe they are called – into Syria, that they are not going to be overly affected by the destruction of the main infrastructure. Pretty SOP for a guerilla group; and from all I’ve read Hezbollah are not exactly amateurs at what they do.
Which brings us back full circle to the matter of collective punishment. IOW, who’s ultimately going to suffer more in the increasing siege of Lebanon…
Is it a war? .Was it declared.? I must have missed it.
Since Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese peoole. they won seats in the democratic election. It will be necessary to destroy them all.
If the aim is to eliminate Hezbollah ,it will be necessary to eliminate Lebanon.Israel apparently has the moral authority to do so. Kinda like kill them all and let Jehova sort them out.
Y’know, Gonzomax, lying assertions like the one you made above are barely worth refuting. Only the most mentally challenged would think to make such an easily falsifiable accusation.
If Israel wanted to massacre Lebanese, they surely are doing a piss-poor job of doing so. If they wanted to massacre Lebanese, why the fuck don’t they start massacring people? Y’know, not this drop one bomb on one house that held a missile launcher despite the fact that they didn’t know for sure that the house was empty.
How about dropping bombs on, y’know, every house in Lebanon?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I guess I don’t have your great mental abilities. If this is about 2 soldiers taken then why did they not immediately get involved in negotiations to get them back. Every other nation has done so. America did so ,even traded arms to get them back from Iran. I do not see how any of this follows . their actions would , in my limited cognitive abilities, have put their lives in jeopardy not saved them.
My tiny brain tells me that history shows governments lie to their people. In America I have become comfortable with that. Israel of course would never do that. Every statement they make is perfect and cannot be argued with. I finally get it.
I apparently mistakenly picture Hezbollah dispersed among the general population. However air strikes are surgically accurate and pick them off exactly. CNN showed what appeared to be about a ten block residential area that was levelled. before my enlightenment I would think maybe some other people were killed. Now I know better. Israel explained that it was a known area that Hezbollah lived in. Strangely Hezbollah uses different streets and bridges too. Roads between Lebanon and Syria are being destroyed. The only use for these roads is rearming Hezbollah. So every one will understand. Bridges, airports all for rearming. The Lebonese will understand it is for a greater good.
I have access to mideast tv. They are calling every death a martyr. They are stressing the deaths of women and children very much. My tv shows in Israel they are doing the exact same thing. Showing the rockets are killing women and children mostly.
This is not the road to peace. It is the road to much much worse.
I just cant see how air raids will get the soldiers back alive. But then that was never the intent.
I am not being bombed. But i try to picture what the people are going through. When you say if we wanted to kill Lebonese we could have killed a lot more. That is a logical argument. There are 1000 dead many wounded,and they are not done yet. TV claims at least 2 more weeks.The ground forces are being sent in. The general running the war has been sacked,. Apparently for relying too much on air attacks.
My limited thinking has me wondering if the plans are to get much bigger. Did any one think when this started it was going to go this long. Would they have thought it was ok if it did. At least quit saying it is about the captured soldiers.
160 refusniks. Pilot sand combatants that refuse to shoot and bomb because they think they are being ordered to shoot civilians. Group called Cobatants for Peace arguing against civilian deaths. Spokesman Shapira is on Link tv saying it is now. Says in Israel it is dangerous to speak against the Lebonese operation.
These guys are getting their info from the wrong place. Straight dopers will give him the facts. They apparently are to stupid to understand what a good thing they are being told to do.They are going to jail for not following orders. Some are being discharged.
Some think it is the start of a much bigger operation to remake the mideast in the neocon way.
My emphasis.
I’m saddened to say that this is rather obvious to all here. Especially in light of the fact that this particular screed of yours has been dealt with repeatedly (and in just about every thread dealing with this subject)…you simply refuse to either read what has been written by others or are so firmly fixed in your erroneous convictions that nothing is going to sway you.
You see, what you refuse to understand is…that the soldiers being captured was only part, and a small part, of how thing thing has gotten to this point…and why Israel took the actions they did. I understand that, due to your “limited cognitive abilities” you may be having difficulties however grasping this fact…despite the fact that its been repeated several times and in several of the threads you have chosen to, er, participate in.
I’m equally sure that you are now going to rush back and re-read those posts, and that like the dawning light, comprehension of the REAL (as opposed to the one made of straw bumping about in your head) situation will ensue.
-XT
I keep forgetting how truth is a byproduct of incuIcation You reject other opinions as due to inability to grasp the complexities ,it also becomes true.Ad Hominum attacks which are propaganda techniques ,not debate techniques are fine. Name calling and insults also good.
All the debaters that disagree with the conclusions are just due to our lack of ability. Don’t you ever doubt. ? Do you believe it is that simple and there can be no mitigating factors.?
Refusniks ,who are involved intimately in the conflict are simply rejected.
You guys worry me. I have never seen the truth so one sided .I always question.I find the real truth somewhere in the middle. You can not even concieve that your position can have flaws.
You know, you may actually have had a point…except for the obvious fact that you haven’t even bothered either to educate yourself on this topic OR actually look at the arguments presented and attempt to debate them. As it is, the irony of you saying stuff like “You reject other opinions as due to inability to grasp the complexities ,it also becomes true”, “Do you believe it is that simple and there can be no mitigating factors”, “I have never seen the truth so one sided” and absolutely my favorite bit “I always question.I find the real truth somewhere in the middle. You can not even concieve that your position can have flaws.”…well, its pretty much off the scale and into bold new territory that has rarely been plumbed, even on these boards. My own irony meter and bullshit detector doesn’t even go near those towering heights…
The obvious fact that you actually believe this stuff, that you believe that you have debated honestly, that you hold some kind of middle position, that you are the lone voice of reason in this wilderness of folks who won’t acept your, er, debate points at face value…well, that just makes it all the more humorous. And sad, truth to tell.
-XT
Gonzomax, why don’t you fucking read my fucking post?
You claimed that Israel is attempting to kill everyone in Lebanon. If they wanted to massacre Lebanese civilians they’re doing a piss-poor job, because they could easily drop lots more bombs into crowded residential areas for the express purpose of massacring civilians.
Now do you understand? Will you admit that your contention that Israel is purposefully massacring Lebanese civilians is a flat-out lie?
So there are a few Israelis who refuse to get involved in the war.
You do realize, do you not, that this action by Israeli is overwhelmingly supported by the Israeli people? (Cite available on request.) I assume you would not reject the majority opinion out of hand, would you?
So, why is the opinion of a few refuseniks important, but the consensus of everybody else not?
Is it possible that your opinion has any flaws? Why, or why not?
Regards,
Shodan
Not to be taken literally. Just a logical extension of an illogical thougt .If indeed thethe aim is to eliminate all Hezbollah and they are mingled in the population there is only one way to do it. Eliminate the pop.
In some ways you are correct. Apparently the Israeli population is backing the war very much.However the fact that some deeply involved in it don’t should give you pause. But nations rally around wars in the beginning. See Iraq for instance.We all jump on the war wagon.But when someone deeply trained and involved rejects it ,I wonder why he has misgivings. I unfortunately have great trouble accepting war as a reasonable thing for logical mature nations to resort to. This one does not offer me any evidence that is a good and ligical result from the interplay between Israel and her neighbors. I am a believer in negotiations. Unfortunately I have a givernment that sees it as a sign of weakness. I have seen two articles on the net saying Condi and Bush are at odds on this one. His 100% approval of Israeli stance is bothersome to her.
I have a pretty good idea of what I think the Israelis are really up to.
As a couple of people have pointed out, Hezbollah could simply fade away.
To prevent that you have to put troops on the ground to draw their fire.
Yet it is absurd to expect to be able to conduct urban warfare without heavy casualties, and the Israelis don’t like casualties.
They need to appear to be having a hard time, they need to appear to be weak, then when they have enough Hezbollah concentrated (and as few non combatants in the area), draw back fast and carpet bomb the place. I would do this about 3am.
Cutting off routes to Syria is logical.
The only bombing in non-Hezbollah residential areas that I heard of was about a week ago, when they bombed two trucks parked up, the trucks had water drills on them.
Partly, I think this was symbolic, demonstrating that they will go anywhere to destroy rockets, but mainly I think that they really were rockets.
Yelping about cutting North Lebanon off from Syria is a bit daft, anyone who supplies aid by land is naive in the extreme. If trucks come in from Syria, they are guaranteed to contain munitions. If anyone wants to supply aid, then there is a perfectly good port, if you can take Westerners out, then you can take food and medical supplies in, subject to a little negotiation with the Israelis.
I’m slightly at a loss to understand Gonzomax’s position, if the Israelis wanted to turn Lebanon into a bombsite, they could have done so on day one.
That the Lebanese government has not disowned Hezbollah indicates just one thing, that the Lebanese government is scared sh*tless of Hezbollah. The Israelis know that, or rather if they don’t they have wasted a lot of resources on intelligence.
I suspect that the Israelis would not mind negotiating with anyone who appeared reasonable, but negotiation for those two soldiers would be a bit silly, for a start Hezbollah wanted about 1000 people in exchange, and the second thing is that Hezbollah would twig that capturing Israeli soldiers is rather a good game.
What really hacked off Israel was those Katyushas. You can be sure that they knew that they were there (their estimate was 12,000 against Hezbollah claims of 17,000 I can’t cite, I heard it on the radio).
My guess is that after they have carpetbombed S Lebanon, they will drop incendiaries (interesting that they have not done that yet), they’ll use helicopters at dawn, to plant paratroops at escape routes and drive armoured columns in to break up the area.
I reckon that then they’ll sit and wait, it would be foolish to conduct a house to house search.
It is very possible that the Maronites will fall on Hezbollah in the North, their best chance is to get marched over to Syria, but many will be shot ‘resisting arrest’.
I’m not sure what will happen to the approx 1m non combatant refugees, N Lebanon is not going to be that keen on letting them breed a new generation of Hezbollah.
Probably the road to Damascus for them. Shame we have no space … :-}
After Israel is certain that they have cleaned up S Lebanon, they’ll pull back, and the border will be covered by probably French troops, with some of the Lebanese army and a token (and utterly useless) UN presence.
North Lebanon will be quietly pleased that they have rid themselves of Hezbollah, who were and still are more of a threat to them than to Israel.
Vast chunks of aid will come in, S Lebanon will be rebuilt using Syrian labour, and it will be repopulated with N Lebanese that don’t like Hezbollah.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of Hamas in Ghaza and the West Bank.
- if individuals had any sense they would switch allegiance to Abbas, and get on his payroll
Predictions, but that is the way I read the runes.
Thanks for your response.
Certainly war ought not to be the first resort for any nation. And we should think about our motives and other options before resorting to it.
But I have posted elsewhere that, from the Israeli point of view, they have already tried the path of negotiation and reasonable interchange with her neighbors. Witness what has been mentioned earlier - withdrawal from Gaza/Lebanon, giving up land for peace, and so forth. And the response to the withdrawal from Lebanon in particular is for Hizbollah to use this as an opportunity to prepare for direct incursions into Israel , building tunnels and killing and kidnapping her citizens.
So it seems that you and I and Israel are also “believers in negotiations”. Hizbollah and Hamas, however, are believers in terrorist attacks instead. So Israel seems to have concluded that she needs first to defeat Hizbollah in Lebanon, since negotiations are not something that seems to be taken with any seriousness by those who hate Israel and want her destruction.
How do you negotiate peace with those who don’t want peace? How do you reach a compromise with those who want only your destruction?
Hizbollah and Hamas and the other terrorists attack Israel if she doesn’t negotiate. They also attack Israel if she does. And any concessions by Israel are also met with further attacks. What negotiations do you recommend in cases like this? Negotiations with the Lebanese government, who assists Hizbollah in gathering arms in order to attack Israel? Negotiations with Hizbollah, whose express purpose for existence is the destruction of Israel?
I don’t think it is fair to say that Israel should just put up with these repeated attacks on her citizens and her territory, or enter into negotiated settlements that she abides by but Hizbollah ignores.
And I wonder why the fact that Hizbollah is doing what it can to maximize civilian casualties in Lebanon always seem to wind up being Israel’s fault. Hizbollah is hiding among civilians, and even preventing civilians from evacuating areas the IDF is going to attack so as to hold the inhabitants hostage. Hizbollah, in other words, would rather have dead Lebanese children to use for PR than protect the people they live among.
Doesn’t that bother you? Why does it always seem to trigger condemnation, not of Hizbollah who forced it, but of Israel who did not?
Regards,
Shodan
When it is all over ,I fear we will find it was all about Iran. A report has surfaced that a death in Lebonon was an Irani. Is it true? I don’t know and neither do you, bnut some will sieze this as a sign to spread it out. Does his nationality matter.
If Syria and Iran are supplying Lebonon ,they are doing a piss poor job of it. They have accumulated a lot of rockets that have guidence systems like a bottle rocket. They have no anti aircraft and are not greeting Israeli troops with huge bombs and armament. Israel is reportedly about to launch a large ground assault. The general favoring aircraft assaults has been removed.
\ Tell me please when the troops encounter the Lebonese ,how will they identify the Hezbollah members? The same way we identify insurgents in Iraq. If they are of the age to fight thaey are assumed an enemy. Where does it stop.
I don’t know…maybe when Hezbollah is ready to throw in the towel and settle for peace? When Hezbollah and Lebanon are ready to acknowledge that they have no legitimate claim to Shebaa Farms, that the blue line is the demarkation ceasefire line, and that this means no cross border raiding, no rocket attacks, no hostilities…you know, ‘ceasefire’ and all that. Maybe if someone sends them a dictionary as to the meaning of that, they can figure out what its supposed to mean…and then, perhaps, we’ll see where it stops.
-XT
It would be convenenient to find an Irani, actually the Israelis reckon that they have found quite a few.
It is not unlikely.
I seriously believe that the Israelis will not consider a few idiots are a reason for going to war with Iran, that has been planned for years, but Plan B will not be triggered by a few juveniles.
If you have read my earlier posts, you would suspect that Hezbollah have a lot more to fear from the North Lebanese. I am putting my (metaphorical) money on the Maronites having a massacre.
I suspect that you are young and idealistic
- you believe in sensible things like negotiation
- Life just aint like that, you run into nutters and have to choose
This is a ballet dance, but the Israelis know what the script is.
Iraq is a different problem, we ( the UK ) should not have been there, and I have long admired Saddam, like Nasser, Fidel and Chavez he is good with the mouth, but interesting at suppressing dissidents.
I favour a retirement home for ex dictators.
Sadly, Iraq like Afghanistan, is a lost cause.
If I were younger I would rather like to sort things out, there is nothing like determined brutality to make people appreciate the advantages of a peaceful life.
My ideal regiment would start at Pomfret, a short and interesting trawl through the less civilized areas of Nepal would bring it up to strength.
A UN ‘Peace keeping force’ that guaranteed to kill anything within a 20 mile radius would keep peace.
I have never served
- but keeping a rather interesting zoo - rather appeals to my benign but brutal instincts.
I like to keep things simple - and effective
Here are a few choice quotes from Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah:
“If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli”. Saad-Ghorayeb, Amal (2001). Hizbullah: Politics and Religion. London: Pluto Press.
“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002) .
“The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities. It is clear that the numbers they talk about are greatly exaggerated… Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history… Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment…”(a speech delivered on 9 Apr 2000).
How are you supposed to negotiate with people who think like that?
I’m not sure but it must be Israel’s fault… somehow.
On the topic of this thread, it now looks like there will be a ceasefire.
It’s worth noting that the UN doesn’t exactly have a great track record with having boots on the ground for issues like this… but perhaps there is cause for hope. If the UN force can help Lebanon actually rid itself of Hezbollah, it might very well pave the way for peace between Israel and Lebanon, much like Jordan and Egypt now enjoy.
I would also point out that Lebanon’s government was not serious about stopping Hezbollah before. Perhaps the change in that attitude will be one of the upsides to the recent war.