Nice straw man. We are talking about differing treatment of folks based upon differing physical characteristics, characteristics that are customarily and somewhat inaccurately identified as “race”. You list different physical characterstics and then claim that diferentiating between them is not “racist”, a claim that nobody has made. Again, we’re talking about treatement of people because of those differing physical characterists. Try again on topic, mmkay?
Point of fact, I don’t believe this. I agree that the notion is absurd. I raise the point because that’s the logical conclusion of what some in this thread are saying: that after a certain number of generations have lived here, due to intermarriage with the progeny of slaves, the progeny of postslavery immigrants have effectively had their culture stolen as well. They’re effectively saying that after x generations in America, black people lose their status as immigrants and become part of the teeming mass of culture-raped slavery descendants. Which raises the question: why? Why should those who have descended from immigrants be deemed to have had their culture stolen just because they also have former slaves in their family tree? Doesn’t their immigrant culture remain just as vibrant and alive? **
Dearie, the difference between immigrant and native performance is part of the discussion; it isn’t “belaboring” it to talk about those differences. What you are basically saying is mere disagreement on the causes of those differences equates to calling blacks “mouth-breaking, knuckle-draggers.” Not only is that an abject lie, it is deeply offensive to boot. You are trying to paint me with racial animus that I simply do not possess. **
Look, if racial discrimination is the principal cause of black problems in America, we would expect similar levels of achievement from native and immigrant populations; after all, if whitey’s keeping you down, it doesn’t matter what your socioeconomic background is or where you came from. Comparing immigrants to natives makes sense because it isolates the variable of skin color: if performance levels differ, it must be for some other reason than racism.
**
Actually, I went back and read your initial posts and thought they were vague enough that I should give you the benefit of the doubt on this point. Now that you’ve clarified, let me point out your constant flip-flopping on this issue. You continunally switch between saying native blacks are stuck in a dismal pit of underperformance and saying that native blacks are just as successful as any other group, including immigrant blacks. You pick whichever approach suits your purpose for any given post. It is very hard to discuss something with a person who constantly moves the goalposts. Please pick one approach, and stick with it. **
Define “something wrong.” I don’t think there’s anything wrong with black people per se. I just think there are serious cultural issues in that community that tend to propagate counterproductive viewpoints (all problems are the result of discrimination, academic success is “selling out,” etc, etc, etc).
Actually, you’re the only one making the moronic assertation that a black club has nothing to do with color, AFAICT because you’re afraid to face the truth about many of your cherished assumptions.
I’m gonna have to call bullshit on this one. While blacks and whites in America may have to deal with each other as equal members of a society that has a shameful legacy of slavery in it’s past, unless you are facing the same barriers to education and freedom that your great-grandfather faced, that burden does not rest upon your shoulders at all.
Of course, we should use your arbitrary classifications because you say so. That has much more legitimacy than governmental forms.
Christ, your debating style amounts to “it’s true because I think it’s true, and therefore you are a moron, racist, homophobe, misogynist, etc. if you disagree with me.”
It gets rather tiresome. You won’t concede any point if it doesn’t coincide with your ultra-liberal assumptions.
I disagree. We’re talking about keeping racist groups out of schools. The only group which has come up in this thread which solely defined by skin color is caucasians. It is wrong to allow clubs based on skin color. Skin color is only incidental to the community of American slave descendants. It is definitive in the case of “caucasians.” “African-American” is the only group where skin color is even incidentally a factor. It plays no role at all in the case of “Hispanic,” “Asian” or “gay” clubs.
What did say in that post which wasn’t self-evidently true?
Do you contend that “Asian” and “Hispanic” are actually races? Are they skin colors? What did I say that wasn’t obviously true?
It’s not a strawman. You claimed that treating people differently based on race is racist in all cases, regardless of motive. I simply pointed out some circumstances in which it is clearly not.
(And by the way, I’m perfectly aware of the tenuous and arbitrary nature of “race.” But I’m not going to say “that group of characteristics customarily and somewhat inaccurately known as ‘race’” every other sentence. Simply saying “race” is adequate for the purposes of this discussion.)
Actually, we’re talking about treating people differently based on socioeconomic differences between races, not physical characteristics. Those differences are as real as the physical ones, if a bit harder to define.
Ooh, that’s so cute! The “mmkay” really boosts your argument. I’m gonna have to try that sometime.
I have not called anyone in this thread a racist, a homophobe or a misogynist. The jury is still out on morons.
Sorry, I could sick of your ridiculous bullshit on page 5 you stuck up sack of shit.
You can take your definitions and blow them up your ass, just cause you want to keep asserting the same bullshit over and over ain’t gonna make it true.
You’re a racist, fuck off.
If we believe the stats that tomndebb presented that the number of African immigrants who have come to this country since emancipation is miniscule compared to the number of native-born black Americans, then it seems common sense would dictate that the native-born black Americans are going to be the “dominant” culture.
Your question would make sense if we were talking about populations that were anywhere close to being the same size. Do you have reason to believe that they are? To me, your question is as silly as asking why white Americans haven’t picked up the culture of Russian immigrants. Doesn’t it make sense that the larger culture would swallow up the smaller one, not the other way around?
Dearie?
It’s belaboring if you fail to use the brains God gave you. You are comparing immigrants NEW to this country with a population of people who have been here ever since this place was hatched. You are comparing people who have never experienced Jim Crow in their history to people who have. You are comparing a population that hasn’t had to deal with three hundred years of slavery with one who has. You are comparing people raised in a multitude of cultures (Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African, Senegalese…) to people who are more culturally homogenous. How could a native-born black person like myself just let that slide without argument?
Numerous posters besides myself have given you an answer for why black Americans differ from black African immigrants, and you have dismissed all of them as “poppycock”. You dismissed the point brought up by DtC and me that Americans treat black Africans and black Americans differently as “anecdotal”. When we bring up the impact of centuries long discrimination, you bring up the Jews…another group that immigrated here voluntarily and is predominately white. You continue to talk about the differential between black African immigrants and native-born blacks while seemingly ignoring the fact that the success of black Americans has risen substantially over the past few decades. Then you shoot down the quite common sensical notion that black African immigrants have benefited from the civil rights legacy initiated by native-born black Americans. Even this was preposterous to you.
If that’s not belaboring, I don’t know what is.
Dearie.
Even if we assume that discrimination is a thing of the past, as you seem too wont to do–this is a stupid statement. Do you realize that black Generation X-ers are the first in their familes NOT to be born second-class citizens? History–or where you come from–has everything to do with this hijack discussion. The horrible thing about racism is that it leaves a legacy. Even when the faucet is shut off, the water is still there on the floor to mop up.
Black Africans who move to this country don’t have water to mop up. Why can’t you see that?
Dearie.
This is what happens when you keep belaboring a meaningless point without listening to what others are saying. Switching nothing. I countered your “Black Africans tend to be more successful than black Americans” with a statement about how successful black Americans are. Later, I presented a cite that states that black Africans are more successful than Americans as a whole. What are the cultural ills in white America that are responsible for this disparity, pray tell? And doesn’t this question make my beef with your “point” pretty clear?
Unlike you, I have tried to use examples, analogies, personal experiences, and actual cites to bolster my loudmouthery and make my point clear to anyone who cares. If you are not following, I don’t know how else to help you.
DtC touched on this question and you didn’t address it: Why do you think black Americans and not–say, black African immigrants–subscribe to these feelings? Do they have these attitudes for any particular reason? Or do you think they arise due to stochastic processes independent of the history of this great nation of ours?
Don’t you think this is an important question to ask if you want to have a discussion about “cultural ills”?
Dearie?
If a person is a billionare tycoon, chances are his grandchildren are going to be billionare tycoons too.
Why doesn’t the reverse hold true?
If a person is undereducated, underemployed, and denigrated, chances are his children will be undereducated, underemployed, and denigrated simply because they will be POOR.
Doesn’t seem like bullshit to me, unless we’ve been magically transported to the Horatio Algers dimension without me knowing.
Sorry. The above is addressed to Weirddave.
Because a billion dollars is a tangable asset that can be passed from generation to generation. It’s a thing that can be handed from one person to another.
Education and opportunity are intangables, opportunities that are made available to people so again, unless you can demonstrate that because of your skin color you were denied access to education or opportunity as your great-grandfather was, your great-grandfather bore burdens that you do not.
You also seem to be saying ( and correct me if I’m wrong ) that black American decendents of slaves face greater predjudice than black African immigrants. I don’t have the slightest idea what hat you pulled this out of but I can assure you that to white folks who are racist “a nigger is a nigger is a nigger”. I have never heard anybody make that kind of destinction when they were spreading their vile poison.
Slave descendants face unique psychological disadvantages borne from a specific history of dehumanzation which has not been faced by recent immigrants. It’s not just about episodic racism it’s about how generation after generation of slaves and slave-descendants were conditioned to accept it while immigrants were not.
Just to clarify: I wasn’t talking about my great-grandfather personally.
But are you serious? So what you’re saying is that if you’re poor, your children aren’t poor? So what you’re saying is the old line “poverty begats poverty” is a stone cold lie?
I’m not even talking about race anymore, just a basic truth. If a person can inherit the riches of their grandparents, they can also inherit their troubles if they are broke.
If racism is the cause of someone’s poverty, then racism will impact his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. The burden will be lifted through the generations, but it will be inherited nonetheless.
** Dewey Cheatum**
Hasn’t the point all along been that racial discrimination is NOT the principal cause of black problems in America, but rather it is a product of having culture, wealth, and self-worth denied via chattle slavery and years of socioeconomic oppression ? Either you are not reading these posts or you’re engaging in strawmanship. Or you’re just dense.
“The man” has not been brought up by anyone except you. Comparing immigrants to natives does not make for good science. What DtC and monstro keep trying to drive home to you is that the two groups only have skin color in common from an ethnicity stand point. The descendants of slaves became a distinct group as soon as they lost their cultural ties to their tribes and nations.
Its not being passed up by cabs or stalked in department stores that are responsible for blacks being disproportionately poorer. The blacks of today are disproportionately poor because the blacks of yesterday were disproportionately poor. Why were they disproportionately poor? Because of institutional racism that made it okay to withhold things like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (and wealth) from people of African descent. It’s not a difficult concept to understand.
I’m not an expert enough to know whether or not they face the same or different amounts of discrimination. However, I would not be surprised if they differed based on my personal experiences, and based on what I have read. Sure, a redneck racist thinks “nigger” regardless, but I don’t worry about redneck racists. I worry about the person who assumes a man named Olufume will be a harder worker than Tyrone because those “Tyrones have all those cultural ills”…and then chucks the corresponding resume in the gahbage.
Why would you think that was directed at you? I’m glad to know that you are not racially isolated as some of the posters here appear to be. Even though I disagree slightly with your point of view, I don’t sense that your posts spring from ignorance or maliciousness.
That is still debatable. I have also seen recent immigrants treated with more respect. Please allow me to change just one word. I don’t think you can deny that the result is true, so what do you make of it?
Gee, Weirddave. Not all racists are alike. Some (such as those you have described above) take pride in their racism. At the other extreme are people who aren’t even aware of their racism. It is they who would be generally more accepting of recent immigrants, light-skinned Blacks, those Blacks whose features have traditionally white shapes, etc.
Do you honestly think that there is racial equity in the work place? In politics? In the justice system?
Zoe, you’d been referring to something I’d been talking about immediately preceding that statement, so I was worried it was referring to me. =)
Glad it wasn’t me you were referring to…I love to debate, but I hate arguing. grin