I’ve not read the entire post… but I do want to add this…
I know only ONE true “African-American”; that is, a person born in Africa and is now a U.S.Citizen…
…and that person is a white, Jewish woman.
What makes the most sense is that immigrant culture gets imported into the larger culture – that immigrant groups, even small immigrant groups, retain their ethnic identity even after several generations.
One would think that intermarriage between native and immigrant blacks would yield a richer cultural identity, rather than having one culture swallow the other. **
Then ye belabor mightily. **
Because in the context in which it was used, that comparison makes sense. **
Listen to what you’re saying. You first said (in your counter, not in the paragraph above) that black natives were every bit as successful as native blacks. Now you’re saying blacks are “more successful than Americans as a whole.” So if black natives are coequally successful with black immigrants, and black immigrants are more successful than the average American, it must follow that black natives are more successful than the average American. A=B; B>C; therefore, A>C.
I don’t believe you actually believe that, but I just point it out to demonstrate how sloppy you are in making your points. You routinely flip-flop from post to post without thinking of how your current statements fit with those you’ve made previously. **
Perhaps you missed the link I provided earlier? **
It’s an interesting academic question, but as I said earlier, I think the overwhelming focus on the wrongs of the past only serves to reinforce the kinds of cultural norms that lead to underachievement. At some point, you’ve got to stop bitching about what Peter’s great-great-grandfather did to Paul’s great-great grandfather and start looking to the future.
But this isn’t the distant past. For example, the GI Bill was instrumental in creating suburbia by allowing returning soilders to purchase homes at excellent rates. Due to segregation in the military, African-Americans did not in this boon on the same kind of scale. So what we see is white flight in the inner city. African American kids today are still trying to escape or improve the inner city, which is hard because property values are tied to school funding which leaves people in depressed areas to repeat the cycle due to poor schools and an inadequate education. You can’t begin to fix this problem without acknowledging it (methinks that might be the very motivation for saying that race “no longer matters”, but that is a point for another day).
The effects of racism, especially on an institutional level, are still felt very directly and present very real burdens to many people today.
sven: that’s fine, but the claim in question isn’t that blacks have had a rough time of it, or that racisim is a continuing and persistent problem; the claim is that slavery (and, more spefically, the denial to slaves of the right to read or write, or to practice their native religion, or to keep their families intact, etc, etc) destroyed their native culture and the destruction of that culture is the cause of their problems. Thus, the claim in question does deal with the distant past.
So basically “You all are fucked up. I don’t know the hell why, but it ain’t my fault, so don’t bring me into it”. Well thanks, but it was only your arrogant ass that brought yourself into in the first place. People like you love to buy into the myth that black people are obsessed with what whites are doing to them, yet all I see is a barrage of unsolicited criticizm from whites about blacks. On this so-called “enlighted” board alone, compare the “Whites are oppressing me” threads to “What the hell is wrong with black people” threads. That’s the only reason the past is brought up, because you fucking asked! You asked why blacks are so pathetic compared to Jews, and why we all aren’t absolutely perfect yet. It’d be easier to “look towards the future” if 80% country wasn’t hovering over you, waiting for you to make a mistake so that they can say “see!”.
Cute. But maybe you should have read the entire “post” before posting that. Not only does it not have anything to do with anything, the flawed etymology of the term has already long been established. And contrary to popular belief, blacks are not demanding to be called “African-American”.
That probably happens when an immigrant group moves into a larger cultural setting. However, that is not the reality of the situation, here. Prior to the 1970s, black African immigration was so low as to be virtually non-existent. Since that time, black immigration has tended to follow one of two paths: individuals graduating college, finding a job, and looking for housing in suburbia or individuals employed by educational or multinational corporations who may live in somewhat ethnic communities, but are isolated from the majority of the non-immigrant black population.
Marriages prior to the 1970s would have been so few and so scattered that there was no “immigrant community” within the larger black communities. Marriages subsequent to the 1970s might result in families living in suburbia or immigrant enclaves (where they have no impact on the traditional black communities) or scattered throughout the black communities piecemeal, so that they have no “community” effect.
For an example of “swallowing,” compare the numbers of African immigrants (black and white from an entire continent) vs numbers from Switzerland.
African immigration (black and white) vs Swiss immigration since 1850:
1851-1860 210 25,011
1861-1870 312 23,286
1871-1880 358 28,293
1881-1890 857 81,988
1891-1900 350 31,179
1901-1910 7,368 34,922
1911-1920 8,443 23,091
1921-1930 6,286 29,676
1931-1940 1,750 5,512
1941-1950 7,367 10,547
1951-1960 14,092 17,675
1971-1980 80,779 8,235
1981-1990 176,893 8,849
1991-1994 108,645 4,752
1995-1995 39,818 1,119
1996-1996 49,605 1,344
1997-1997 44,668 1,302
1998-1998 37,494 1,090
I’m sure we all recall the explosion of cheese-making, banking, and watch-making that occurred in the U.S. between 1880 and 1900 as the Swiss exerted their influence on our culture.
? I thought you said the cause of black people’s problems were certain “cultural ills”. Now it sounds like your trying to discredit the value of culture in relation to a group’s success. What exactly is your position?
Gee, paranoid much?
Lie down. Take a Valium. The world isn’t out to get you. Society isn’t breathlessly waiting for you or anyone else to screw up.
(OK, we were happy to see Gigli tank, but that’s about it.)
If a previous generations’ education level has nothing to do with the opportunities and challenges faced by the current generation, then a metric assload of sociological and educational research findings are bunk.
It also leaves me wondering how, exactly, a certain world leader got admitted to Yale, but let’s no go there again.
I thought I was pretty clear in saying that relentlessly looking to the sins of the past isn’t a terribly productive exercise for addressing today’s cultural ills.
I don’t think anyone’s suggested that a parent’s education doesn’t impact the education of his or her children.
But there’s clearly much, much more to it than that. Any number of poor, uneducated immigrants have come to this country and seen their offspring succeed educationally. And there is the pesky problem that racial performance differences exist even when parental socioeconomic levels are controlled for.
Do you have a cite that the progeny of poor, uneducated black immigrants do any better than the children of poor, uneducated slave-descendants?
Talk about sloppy, babe. I can’t even make sense of what you’re saying, and the parts that I do are blatant lies. Never once did I say that blacks are more successful than Americans as a whole. I said black immigrants from Africa are more successful. You are the one who is lumping the two groups together in a confusing and wrong way.
There are a million black immigrants in this country right now. Are you telling me that we can’t find a million native blacks who aren’t just as successful? That’s what I meant when I talked about matching success with success (you know, to tone down that “cultural ills” crap). Yes, black immigrants coming here are disproportionately wealthier than native-born black Americans. But so the hell what? They are wealthier than Americans as a whole! Why do you keep ignoring that?
(If those one-million successful native-born black Americans picked up and moved to Haiti, could we call the Haitians culturally ill too? How about if they moved to Jamaica? Brazil? Peru? Argentina? Canada? How about if we asked all the black people who are wealthy enough and willing enough to immigrate to raise their hand, and then we compared them to the white population at large? What would we find, Dewey? Who would be more successful?)
I taught a Nigerian guy a few summers ago. Like most Americans, I assumed the guy was some refugee, some poor schmuck coming here to start a new life in wealthy America. No, the guy was the son of a wealthy oil businessmen in Nigerian, and he was here to see the sights. He had never worked a day in his whole life and was a giant snob. I think people assume that Africans are all poor and miserable wretches. No, some of them are quite rich. They don’t allow just anyone to come over here and work. Many that are let in are the well-connected, intelligent, far-from-poor people that we never associate with the Dark Continent. Prior to the 1990s, most black immigrants were in this camp. It’s only recently where we have started seeing an influx of poor African immigrants. Are they doing better than native-born black Americans? Can someone tell me?
Does anything I said above help you understand why it is stupid to continue to compare black Africans and native-born black Americans?
How about if we want to talk about what happened to our father or mother? Or ourselves?
And who is doing the bitching? As pizzabrat said, it was YOU who started this discussion. Only when black people get beat over the head with this shit does the “bitching” start. And who can blame us? You wanna know why we suck. You want us to blame ourselves for why we suck. You don’t even want us to acknowledge what is still happening TODAY, let alone what happened when our parents were growing up. You want us to assume that everything is honkey-dory. Well, you ain’t getting us to lie like that, buddy. The difference between the immigrant and the native-born is that the former is optimistic, and the latter is a realist. They may have heard the horror stories about racism, but they haven’t experienced it. Native-born black Americans, even young ones like myself, still have to deal with this shit. That pessimism that you talked about earlier? when you were elaborating on the “cultural ills” stuff? That’s in response to 300+ years of shitna. Not made-up shitna. Not exaggerated shitna. But real. It’s hard to forget, man. Especially when you can’t turn on the TV or open the paper without being reminded of it.
I can’t drive a block from my house without being reminded of how much BLACK PEOPLE SUCK.
To you this may be a cute academic exercise, but for black people–like myself, like pizzabrat–it’s defending ourselves and our families. Our identity.
You know that Nigerian student? He would always sit in the front passenger seat during the field trips while I was driving, and he had no problem telling me how low he thought of black Americans. He gave me a whole line of things we needed to do to improve ourselves, like he’s Father Wisdom and I’m the president of the Black American Club. Anyway, I wanted to throw him from the van every time he opened his loud mouth. I wanted to kick his ass all the way back to Nigeria, where we know everyone has their shit together.
He told me that white Americans like him better because he’s assimilated. I wanted to ask if he wanted a gold star or a red one.
I disagree on what the “cultural ills” are, btw. Now that we’re just bullshitting, let me give my hypothesis: I don’t think young black Americans worry too much about the “white man”. I think many young black Americans worry too much about getting money the easy way: the “ghettoization” of career development, if you will. “Whitey fear” doesn’t have a damn thing to do with this. Rampant capitalism and the specific images targeted to and perpetuated by our youth have everything to do with it.
That is not the point that Dewey made, Diogenes.
There have been several studies in which black students have done more poorly than whites students when the kids came from the same (mixed) neighborhoods and the parents had equivalent incomes and job types.
He is not referring to a black immigrant vs black native comparison, but a black vs white comparison in which the cultural and societal and economic situations of the parents are equal.
(One of the studies occured in Shaker Heights, OH which has been peacefully integrated for 30 years. The city is often cited as an example of the society toward which the U.S. should be striving.)
Dewey
Weirddave did. Maybe he’s come to his senses since then, though.
There are quite a number of “rags to riches” stories in black America. My own parents aren’t rich, but they moved up several notches from very meager beginnings. But again, by comparing immigrants to black Americans you are downplaying the major differences between these groups.
Acknowledging as much does not equal bitching or whining.
No, actually, what I said was that no child today ( in America ) is denied access to education or the opportunity to make of himself what he wants because of his race. It may be harder for some than others, but to claim that because of their race some people aren’t educated or are told “No, you can’t do X because you’re black ( or whatever )” is patently untrue. Don’t put words in my mouth.
Find where I said “because of their race some people aren’t educated and are told ‘No, you can’t do X because you’re black’”. Find anything remotely like that coming out of my mouth.
I said that racism is a burden that can be inherited. How you got all of the above out of that, I don’t know.
Weirddave, you live in one of the most educationally divisive cities in the country, so you’re actually well availed of opportunity to educate yourself.
So here’s what you do: go to a Baltimore city school. Look at the building, look at the kids, look at how they look, how they’re dressed. Look at their lunchroom and see what they’re eating, and how they’re paying if they’re eating school lunches. Look at the library, see how many books they have, and how many of them are new. Find out how much time kids get in that library every week. Talk to some teachers, find out how many computers there are per student in the school. Find out how easily teachers can get equipment and supplies that they need for the classrooms, and how much they pay out of pocket each year to provide materials that the district can or will not.
Then go and do the same in Owings Mills.
Then take a look at the newly released Dept. of Education/National Center for Education Statistics National Report Card, paying specific attention to the National Subgroup Results for reading and math.
Then you might pick up the book No Excuses by Abigail and Stephan Thernstrom, in which they dissect statistics which indicate that black students graduating from American public high schools have, on average, the same level of education as white students who have only graduated from the eighth grade.
Then you’ll have a legitimate basis from which to make statements like “harder for some than others.”
Earlier in one of my posts I mentioned teaching my students to have higher expectations for themselves than others might. I have no data or cites, but I have often wondered how much expectations have to do with achievement. (And I’m speaking of the expectations of the educators – and the cultural relay of expectations – and how that affects the personal expectations of the students.) Just a thought.
Anecdotal: Once I taught in a small (450 students) 98% Black high school. Our state required proficiency testing for graduation. The teachers in our school focused on really keeping the kids pumped for this test for a couple of months. We didn’t “teach the test” but we did serve as cheerleaders. We worked on their self-respect. We worked every angle we could think of. The students knew it was a team effort and that we believed in them.
When the results came back, a greater percentage of our students passed the proficiency test than in any other of the fourteen high schools in the city. It was a glorious moment and I suspect that the long term effect on those students was more important than the results of the test itself.
I was a witness to the most famous one. “She” was a frequent participant in local forsenic meets and I was a always a judge. Feisty even then![/hijack]
Dewey, what is your solution(s) to these “cultural ills”?
On this narrow point, you’re right. Upon more careful review, I withdraw the flip-flop point. I was conflating some of your remarks with those of pizzabrat. My apologies. **
No, because it was not stupid to make that comparison for the narrow purpose I used it for. **
Actually, no, it’s you who’s doing the bitching about “what Peter’s great-great-grandfather did to Paul’s great-great grandfather.” I’m not the one who claimed psychocultural harm for centuries-old sins.**
Hoo-boy, you just said a mouthful. Isn’t this basically what I’ve been claiming? That black underachievment is largely explainable by a culture says failure is inevitable, and optimism is folly? **
And immigrant blacks don’t? They live here, too, after all. They have the same kind of day-in, day-out interactions as any other black person.
I disagree on what the “cultural ills” are, btw. Now that we’re just bullshitting, let me give my hypothesis: I don’t think young black Americans worry too much about the “white man”. […] “Whitey fear” doesn’t have a damn thing to do with this. **
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I don’t think I suggested any such thing. Indeed, I cited to Ogbu as a guy I think has a pretty good bead on the problem, and his hypothesis is that blacks, and especially black youths, reject educational achievement as “acting white” – that is, it has nothing to do with fear of the white man, and everything to do with setting themselves apart from mainstream cultural norms. Unfortunately, the very norms they are rejecting are the ones critical to life success.