I (quite seriously) want to make sure I understand you. Based on this question and your prior posts, it sounds like you don’t draw any distinction between stating that you dislike something and stating that something has no merit and/or value.
Is that an accurate reflection of your opinion?
I never did. I said very early on that you can enjoy whatever you want to. I allowed for your opinion while voicing mine.
No, I’m airing my opinion in the proper place, and in the proper thread. As it is my opinion, I’m not telling you to do anything. I never did.
Hold on just a sec.
I wanna get some popcorn. This may get good.
No. If I think rap sucks and you love rap, obviously there is some intrinsic value to you. Therefore, your opinion necessarily has some value. Just not with me, especially if I tried to like rap and failed to find any redeeming value in doing so. That is what having an opinion is all about, being able to hold an opposing position. In this case, I hold the opposing position, and in spite of the attacks I am able to do so honorably, just as the people who are attacking me and my character are able to honorably hold an opinion opposite mine.
That doesn’t remotely follow from what I said. How stupid are you?
Nope. You didn’t say you dislike it. You said it “sucks”. You made a judgment of the music instead of simply stating an opinion.
I can’t, as I’ve stated several times. I don’t know much of anything about hip-hop. You’re equating my refusal to condemn something with my liking it. Two different things - if you think those things are the same thing, it’s because you’re stupid.
And, as I said, I don’t particularly like it. Why do you keep bringing that up, over and over? I’ve been quite clear. I can only conclude that you’re not reading my posts - in which case, you’re opining about what I’ve said without any understanding of it (and that would make you stupid).
I’ve distinguished quite clearly between people’s likes and dislikes of certain things and those things in themselves. If you had simply stated that you don’t like hip-hop, what would I care? (Why would you post something so boring and self-absorbed, anyhow?) That’s not what you said, however.
“Psychobabble”? Again, with the insulting anything you don’t understand. Do I need to explain this with hand puppets?
No, he expressed himself fine. I maintain that, for all intents and purposes, there is no functional difference between, “Hip hop sucks,” and “I don’t like hip-hop.” It’s simply two different ways of expressing the same opinion. When the person starts making objective statements about either the people who make hip-hop (It doesn’t take any talent, as argued by MelC) or people who like hip-hop (they’re incapable of appreciating “real” music, as argued by ambushed) you’re getting into different territory. But commenting on the music itself? I don’t see any reason to censure people who say something sucks any more than you can censure people for saying it’s awesome. Both are subjective accounts of that persons experience with the art.
That’s not a valid comparison. A Yugo is an object with a definite, measurable function. We can tell a Yugo sucks because it gets worse gas mileage, doesn’t have as many features, and breaks down more often than comparbly priced cars. Similarly, we can say a hurricane sucks because it kills people and destroys property, which are objectively bad things. There is no such objective scale with which to measure art.
I’m not saying that you can’t develope a standard for evaluating art, but that standard can only be a personal standard, not a universal standard. It is perfectly fair for you to say that Jessica Simpson’s music sucks, because compared to what you value in music, it does. Other people have different values, though, and how do you show conclusively that those values are wrong?
I admit, I don’t care for blanket dismissals of entire genres (or worse, artforms) that we see in this thread, and in the one linked to be Doors. It strikes me as sad, because I really do believe that anyone can find something they like in any genre or artform, if their willing to look with an open mind. But my problem here is with the generalization, not the terminology used to express the generalization. And either way, it doesn’t strike me as that big a deal. If someone has written off an entire section of modern culture, that’s their loss, not mine. As long as they’re not being dicks about it (and saying that hip-hop sucks does not make one a dick, IMO) then I don’t really care.
Thanks. That’s precisely what I was trying to understand.
not to weigh in on the actual topic but to assert that some one who says “it sucks” is offering something other than their opinion is, IMHO splitting hairs. Unless, of course, one is referring to a vacuum cleaner. especially if they follow it up w/ stuff like “my opinion” and all.
and I don’t generally come running out in support of Airman (though I have little against him as a poster)
You know, I wish at some point you would actually read my posts before continuing to post your drivel.
I’ve been into music for 30 years, been in at least one band for 20, and haven’t lived as a hermit at any point in the last two decades. Hip hop, in case you haven’t noticed, is quite popular - it’s everywhere. I’ve seen hip hop at various concerts I’ve been to (opening acts, or part of the bill, or at open air concerts like las weekend, etc.). I go to clubs frequently here in NY - yep, a lot of them play hip hop.
Your definition of ‘he hasn’t listened to hip hop’ is ‘he hasn’t listened enough to the guys I like to realize how brilliant they are!’. Which, of course, is bullshit. I’ve heard plenty of hip hop in various forms over the last twenty-plus years - since I haven’t actually dove into the depths of hip hop, obviously my exposure is limited to mainstream hip hop. And since by definition mainstream means it’s the most common, popular form for the genre, what I’ve been listening to is obviously makes up the core of hip hop. And I think it sucks big throbbing monkey balls.
I also notice that while some posters here have been throwing out names of alternative, experimental, or otherwise not well-known hip hop artists, I have yet to see anyone jump in to laud LL Cool J or Ludacris or Fifty Cent.
Practically none of the names offered in these threads can hardly be said to be commercially successful. Prince Paul and Deltron 3030 cracked the top 50–but only just–about 7 years ago. A Tribe Called Quest was arguably mainstream; they had a number of songs on the charts in the 1990s, including a large number of top 10 hits - but they last hit the charts back in 1998. De La Soul barely cracked the top 100 back in 2002. Goodie MOB also reached no. 65 back in 2000. Mos Def got to 90 in 2004. The Roots haven’t broken the top 50 since 1999.
Despite the ‘we’ve clearly demonstrated that hip hop doesn’t suck, we’ve given lots of examples’ statements, the fact is that the only examples–good as they may be; I noted earlier that I found Blackalicious rather intersting–are minor players in hip hop and thus aren’t at all represenative of the entire genre.
He didn’t successfully communicate what you’re claiming he meant to me, Asimovian, or Rubystreak. I don’t think there’s any evidence that he actually meant what you said, or that he buys into the framework you’ve offered up.
And that’s why I don’t think he buys into what you’re saying. Because in that framework, it simply doesn’t make sense to describe a work of art as “sucking”. If something “sucks”, then it’s bad. If art can’t actually be good or bad, then how can you rationally state that it sucks?
We’re getting into epistemology or something here. How do you conclusively show that any values are wrong? Hell, you agreed with my statement about hurricanes. How can you objectively show that human life has value?
And that’s the primary thing I’ve been arguing here. DragonAsh, at last appearance, was still trying to claim that he could evaluate a huge body of work even though he’s acknowledged, and others have demonstrated, that he doesn’t have much knowledge of it. I think anyone who makes that kind of generalizations is most likely quite ignorant, because they clearly don’t even recognize the complexity and variation in what they’re dismissing. Refusing to acknowledge it when it’s explained to you is even less comprehensible to me.
Well, “Rap music sucks” certainly does sound like a more blanket, universal, dismissal of the genre than “I dislike rap music.” The focus in the former statment is the genre, the focus in the latter statement is the person forming the opinion. Granted, it’s not as bad as “Rap music is an intrinsically inferior genre,” and I think it’s kind of a silly point to argue, but I understand how someone could be put off by it.
I think you’re wrong.
“Rap music sucks” is, to me, no more than a blanket, universal dismissal of the genre in the speakers’ opinion. the “I think” is the implied first part of the sentence.
maaaaaybe, some one could misinterpret that statement as other than an expressed opinion, but after the speaker (writer) further clarifies it as their opinon only an asshole would continue to assert that the original “rap music sucks” is other than the persons opinion. IMHO.
I am surprised that someone with your interest and knowledge of music would make this argument. The fact that the real hip hop innovators are minor players now is hardly relevant. What matters is who we will be listening to in 20 years.
Although my knowledge of hip-hop is pretty meagre, I have little doubt that Public Enemy and Aesop Rock will still be selling albums while 50 Cent will be long forgotten.
Uh-huh. And yet you described it in terms that are explicitly - as demonstrated - only applicable to a small portion of the genre. You condemned it for things that posters with in depth knowledge of the genre pointed out are not particularly endemic to the genre - “thugs, bling, and hos” I think were your words. Matter of fact, even based on my limited exposure to hip-hop - stuff that’s largely pretty mainstream, in fact - I can tell that that statement is ridiculous. So, whatever you may say now, you already indicated your lack of familiarity with the artform. Further, you tried to argue with me earlier that it’s valid to evaluate hip-hop only on the basis of familiarity with its most popular acts - so in that post, you certainly acknowledged that you don’t have much understanding of the breadth of hip-hop. (I assume you dropped that line of argument because I successfully demonstrated the consequences of applying it to another genre of music.)
How many times have I stated clearly in this thread that I don’t listen to much hip-hop at all, I don’t know much about it, and I’m not particularly fond of it? How many, DragonAsh? I’m guessing at least half a dozen.
And you complain at me for not reading your posts.
Oh, shit. You’re making that argument again, even after I demonstrated that it doesn’t work!
Now, see, I wouldn’t have any argument with you if you were able to be honest about this stuff. But you’re not; you’re scrambling pathetically to find excuses why your opinion is somehow better than an opinion, when you wouldn’t have found any argument had you simply acknowledged from the start that you were talking about your own opinion, not offering up some pretense of an objective evaluation of the artform. But you tried - you tried to prove that hip-hop is somehow worse than other music because of stage antics and because of its lyrics - and when your attempt at objective argument failed, you began scrambling desperately. Why not just admit that you have an opinion, and other people have opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily rooted in objective truth?
Nope. Also, none of the rock fans have jumped to talk about how much they like Nickelback, Hoobastank, or Staind. Not even you! (Though you attended concerts by the latter two - why would you attend concerts by bands you claim not to like?) So, by the very standard you’re advancing here, rock also sucks.
Of course, you don’t care about having a rational discussion about this.
So, how about rising to pulykamell’s challenge offered earlier, and advancing some argument that Top 40 rock doesn’t also suck?
Once again, you’re trying to advance an objective argument. Except that objective argument proves exactly the same thing when applied to the kind of music you’re apparently a fan of. Why not just admit that you have an opinion, you have your own likes and dislikes, and that it’s not something worth arguing over? I mean, it would make for a pretty boring, self-absorbed pit thread. But at least it wouldn’t make you look quite so foolish.
Excuse me? Find a line in any of my posts that means this. Obviously my arguments are too complex for you to understand, since you continue to summarize my posts in terms that are blatantly inaccurate. Do you need this explained to you with hand puppets like Airman Doors?
And by pretending that you can somehow “represent” an entire genre, you demonstrate your silly desire to turn this into some kind of argument over the merits of one genre or the other, even though obviously no real standard can be drawn to make such a comparison.
Fair enough.
True, but I hold that to be a failure on your end, not on his. Any statement about the worth of any artform is going to be entirely subjective. Anyone entering into a debate of this sort ought to understand that from the beginning, and recognize statements such as Airman’s for what they are: forcefully stated personal opinions. Unless the poster has explicitly stated otherwise, one should not assume that a statement of “X sucks” automatically excludes any room for disagreement, no more than someone saying “X is awesome” should be understood as implying that anyone who doesn’t like X is ignorant or uncultured.
No? What about this?
Because when someone says something sucks, they are relating their personal, subjective reaction to that art, not stating it as a universal truth. Unless, of course, they explicitly state otherwise, as ambushed did.
Well, sure, taken to a certain extreme, one could argue that everything we experience is entirely subjective, and that there is no objective reality at all. However, when discussing natural disasters and defective automobiles, I think we can establish some principles with which very few would disagree, such as, “It’s bad when someone’s home is destroyed and they die,” or “A car should be able to back out of your driveway without its transmission falling out.” If anyone wants to argue those premises, we can start a different thread. In a thread about art, in an open forum not specifically dedicated to that art, you’re not going to be able to establish those sorts of basic premises, because there’s far too many differing viewpoints over what the goal of art should be, how it should arrive at that goal, and wether any individual work has managed to get there or not.
Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that you take two people who have never heard any hip-hop at all, and expose them both to the same amount of music from that genre. One of them doesn’t like what he’s heard at all, and decides that “Hip hop sucks.” The other one loves it, and decides that “Hip hop is awesome.” Is one of these opinions more ignorant than the other? That’s what bothers me the most, in these arguments, is the apparent double standard: you are free to praise stuff you like in the strongest terms you care to use, but you must be very circumspect in criticising anything, lest you step on the toes of people who like it.
I realize that’s not exactly what you’ve been doing in this thread, and that a lot of posters have put forward factually incorrect statements as objective truth, and those statements deserve to be called out, but I do get a vibe of, “You can’t say bad things about stuff I like!” running through this thread, which I think needs to be addressed.
If, as Miller contends, there is no difference between saying “this sucks” and “I don’t like this,” then this thread is functionally over before it starts. Anyone can like or dislike whatever he wants. As long as you’re not saying that it’s of low quality, not valuable, and that it’s fans are cultureless cretins ruining America, we’re fine.
No, you can even say that, provided that it’s your opinion. Of course, since this whole thread is, strictly speaking, nothing but opinions, you’re right in that the thread has no real value except to air your opinion. Without the vitriol it might as well be a poll in IMHO.
Pretty much, yeah. DragonAsh doesn’t like hip hop. So what? Does anyone really care what sort of music he listens to?
No, I’d disagree with that, at least your first two points. Quality and worth are two elements that one considers when coming to a critical opinion. If one feels that the subject under consideration is lacking in those two areas, that’s an excellent reason not to like it.
I’m with you on the third point, though. Just because someone else has different tastes than you is no reason to insult them. In fact, that’s quite possibly the stupidest reason imaginable to insult someone.
Current Top 40 rock that doesn’t suck would include Red Hot Chili Peppers, Audioslave, AFI (obviously not to everyone’s taste; I’m still undecided), Tom Petty, and Tool, for starters.
Hip hop as a valid music artform will carry more weight with me when acts like Blackalicious are mainstream instead of being relagated to the backwaters of the genre. As long as the thuggin’ and hos-centric acts like Fifty Cent continue to be representative of the genre, I’m going to continue having a fairly low opinion of hip hop.
Just my opinion, of course. I completely realize that arguing opinions is pretty much a meaningless exercise. But I would like to keep the record straight: my knowledge of hip hop is about as extensive as it could possibly be for a non-fan. I am not basing my opinion of the genre on a few hours’ exposure last Saturday; I’ve been exposed to it for years and years. This thread was interesting, at least in the sense that I learned of at least one hip hop act that doesn’t suck. And I suspect we could get a good Great Debates thread out of the 'is there really no such thing as ‘better’ or ‘worse’, only ‘different’? angle. And Eonwe started a very interesting thread over in CS. I also find it interesting that most people seem to equate hip hop and rap as one and the same thing (I noted earlier that I find the two quite different). Also interesting was that no one trotted out the ‘hip hop is ruining this country’ rhetoric.
Also for the record: my opinion of hip hop itself is in no way the same thing as my opinion of hip hop fans; people are free to like what they want, and I would think no greater or less of them regardless of their tastes. I well may argue the relative lack of merit of their choices, and the clear superiority of my tastes, of course; I agree with Miller that ‘quality’ and ‘value’ are aspects that can be argued and debated.