Once again, go here and listen carefully to the snippets of the songs. Sorry I can’t connect you to the whole thing, because the songs are spectacular. But listen carefully and try to appreciate the themes, the rapid-fire intellectual and cultural references, the massively complex rhythm (both the backbeat and the foreground,) and the absolutely insane amount of work that had to go into the rhyme patterns and overall structure. This is one guy that incorporates classical rhyme patterns (ie iambic pentameter) into his material with fair regularity, and is not afraid to break out of those patterns, usually with enormously punchy and effective results.
This stuff is FAR more complex and involved than 99.999% of all rock music. He uses his voice very much like a jazz instrument, except that there’s another layer of meaning…it uses actual language. It’s masterful stuff, and I can’t help but think that the classical masters would appreciate it. You know why? Because their minds were artistically wide open.
If you really can’t appreciate the mastery in this music, you either have 1) a closed mind, or 2) a tin ear. Maybe both.
Now consider that there are MANY hip hop artists out there of this caliber, and they have nothing at all to do with radio hip hop.
So I shouldn’t take Airman Doors at face value. When he says that “hip-hop sucks”, what he means is not anything about hip-hop per se, but rather a statement about his own like or dislike of hip-hop. And I do that by assuming that he shares your opinion that all aesthetic judgments are personal, and no outside standards are possible. Despite what he actually said, he meant that he doesn’t like it. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s certainly not the case that no one in this thread has tried to offer up their opinions as though they were actual truths, so it seems like an unsafe assumption. You argue that his statement about hip-hop is actually a “forcefully stated personal opinion” - but, if that’s actually the case, why did he express it instead as an evaluation of the artform rather than a presentation of his opinion? Strictly taken at face value, that’s simply not what he said. If I assume he’s operating under the same set of assumptions that you’re using, I can “translate” what he said to what he actually meant. But why would I assume that? The assumption is ridiculous.
Further, I think there’s certain counterexamples. He explicitly called hip-hop artists “no-talents”, and he said this: “[W]e dislike it because it sucks”. Now, with sufficient effort, I suppose you could try to reconcile this statement - he deliberately stated a tautology, or something like one, but deliberately restated it in different words the second time around. Quite the complicated little rhetorical flourish, eh? He seemed to be saying “A therefore B”. But actually, he was saying “A therefore A” and secretly asserting that his opinion is not up for argument (despite the fact that he was arguing it) but trickily disguising one of the As as something else to make his meaning less apparent. Such subtlety!
Then, later on, he tells Rubystreak that it’s acceptable to declare all hip-hop fans “cretins” as long as it’s only an “opinion”. Airman Doors has a weirdly expansive view of what constitutes a legitimate opinion, and that view simply is simply not compatible with what you’re attributing to him. And he’s persisted in attempting to argue hip-hop on its merits throughout the thread - even to the point of repeatedly describing me as a fan of hip-hop who refused to accept that anyone might not share my opinion. (His reading comprehension appears limited.) That signifies that he believed he was arguing over the merits of hip-hop - an argument that is simply not compatible with the framework you claim he’s operating under.
He has explicitly stated that it’s just his “opinion” and that it’s not “objective”. But he’s also repeatedly said things that are thoroughly inconsistent with the attitude that he was just remarking upon his own personal taste.
Well, Airman Doors has said a bunch of things that clearly contradict the idea that he’s relating his personal, subjective reaction, starting with stating that it “sucks”, even if you’ve tried to explain that away. I think his statement that “hip-hop sucks” is not actually a covert expression of a completely different idea - I think he meant exactly what he said. The most plausible interpretation I can find for his words is that he really thinks that hip-hop is somehow inherently bad, and he’s offered up platitudes to the effect of “but you may disagree with that” to avoid responsibility for that.
See, I think there’s a certain value in not shitting all over what other people like. I think there’s something to be said for recognizing that your own opinion is just your own opinion. Keep a bit of humility, you know?
On the contrary. I’ve seen a lot of people step up to argue with DragonAsh’s basic argument, which is fundamentally an argument that hip-hop is intrinsically bad. And I’ve seen a number of people jump up to agree with him. Some of them might be doing so because they feel the need to stand up for anyone who shares their personal taste, though I certainly can’t understand why any of them are doing it. Others are pretty explicitly trying to “prove” that hip-hop is bad. And those people have pretty clearly been arguing from ignorance, which makes it even worse. I don’t have much patience for that kind of sloppy thinking, and it’s pretty obvious that that’s my argument, since I’m not really a fan of hip-hop.
Fine. I’ll give you Jay-Z, Kanye, Public Enemy, Outkast, The Gorrilaz, Beastie Boys, De La Soul, KRS-ONE, Biggie Smalls/Notorious B.I.G. Is that better? Mainstream enough for you? I think those are all good artists. Freakin’ De La Soul’s Three Feet High and Rising is is one of pop music’s landmark albums, period.
Red Hot Chili Peppers? For someone complaining about unoriginality, do I even have to go through “Dani California” with you? RHCP were good enough through Blood Sugar Sex Magik. After that, I really don’t need to hear another Peppers song. Audioslave? Boring. I like both bands that spawned half of Audioslave, but the result? Meh. Disappointing. I even passed up free tickets to one of their shows.
‘If you don’t agree that the music I like is fantastic, you’re an idiot or there’s something wrong with you’.
:rolleyes:
Oh my god, you’re kidding right?
Let’s see: after several hours of listening to Aesop Rock over the last two days (from Labor, Bazooka Tooth, and Daylight EP): drum machine spitting out repetitive beats (note: syncopation and the excessive use of pitch-changing and other effects doesn’t automatically make a song ‘complex’), repetitive bass lines, not a note of actual singing anywhere, lyrics that quite frankly could mean anything, nothing, or whatever the hell someone wants them to mean…
I can’t believe you’re saying that this sounds-from-a-machine stuff is more complex than stuff from bands that actually have to play the instruments to make the music. While singing, no less!
The lyrics of some of the minor, experimental acts recommended in this thread may be great; but that’s kind of a given: lyrics should be more important in hip hop; there’s so little going on musically, and there’s no singing, so if the artist doesn’t have anything to say, or doesn’t say it very well…well, there isn’t much left, is there? Rock has aways been less about what is said and more about how the beat moves you. I mean, if you can listen to RHCP’s new single Dani California without at least tapping your feet - even if you don’t like it - you’re probably dead, deaf, or made of wood. (And Keidis has shown that he’s no slouch as a songwriter when he’s in the mood).
As I noted before, I believe that rap itself is different from hip hop, and does in fact take a certain level of skill to be done well. I can’t rap worth shit; many of the artists noted in this thread can indeed rap well. But as for the entire music itself…well, let’s just say I’m confident that I could whip up a hip hop backing track essentially unrecognizable from other hip hop songs without too much trouble. I should head over to my buddies’ house and use his KORG.
No, what he said is that he didn’t like it. “Hip hop sucks,” is, on it’s face, an expression of opinion, and it can’t possibly be anything else. Given that, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they recognize this themselves, until they explicitly say otherwise. If everything offered in this sort of discussion is just opinion, then it’s a waste of time and effort to type out, “In my opinion,” in front of every declarative sentence.
Aside from ambushed, has anyone who has been denigrating hip hop claimed that it’s impossible to have an informed, valid opinion that hip hop is valuable or worthwhile?
Because that’s how the vast majority of people talk about art: they talk about what they like, not what everyone else likes. To Airman Doors, hip hop sucks. He has explicitly stated (as has DragonAsh, and Diogenes, and almost everyone else on the other side of the debate) that this is his personal opinion, and that he recognizes that other people disagree, and that he has no problem with that. It’s not at all a ridiculous assumption: it’s one that gives the benefit of the doubt to everyone involved, avoids pointless arguments like, “That’s just your opinion!” which are already plainly obvious to everyone involved, and focuses the debate on what’s being said, instead of dicking around over how it’s being said.
Yeah, I guess it is a tautology: he doesn’t like it because he doesn’t like it. I don’t see what’s particularly wrong with such a statement.
I’d be very surprised to learn that Doors had intended to include that specific part of Rubystreak’s post in his disagreement.
It’s not? Again:
In what way does that not line up with the position I’ve attributed to him?
How is it not compatible? An opinion about hip-hop is clearly going to be based on the perceived merits of hip-hop. If the speaker sees no merit to it, that’s going to be the basis of his argument.
There’s nothing “covert” about how he’s expressing his opinion, nor is your interpretation remotely plausible. “Avoid responsibility for his opinion?” What does that even mean?
I think that anyone who gets upset because someone doesn’t like the same stuff they like needs to grow the fuck up and get over themselves. Does the fact that Doors or DragonAsh dislike hip hop affect anyone else’s ability to enjoy hip hop? No? Then who cares how they express that dislike, so long as their not being personally insulting when they do it?
And there have been just as many people arguing that hip hop is intrinsically good. Why is one argument objectionable, and the other not?
There have been some arguments made from ignorance, and those should be rebutted. “Hip hop sucks,” is not necessarily an ignorant argument, no more than “Hip hop is awesome” is necessarily an ignorant argument. Both are statements of opinion, nothing more, and should be treated as such.
How 'bout putting your money where your mouth is, putting a track together, and letting those who appreciate the genre critique it?
Now the idea of making a track “essentially unrecognizable” is fairly vague. Now if you want to make it "totally original, with a groove, that someone could imagine a half-talented hip-hop artist performing with, I’d really like to hear this.
I’m a garage band veteran myself; my arsenal includes a Gibson Special II, a beat-up acoustic, a Fender P-Bass, and plenty of midi stuff around. The first day I bought a bass I was able to sit in on a friend’s band and play along. In a band, particularly as a session player, it’s not terribly difficult to slide in and not sound like utter shit.
Please don’t count me in as a current hip-hop fan; I like the old stuff - it’s difficult to access the challenging good stuff in the mainstream via radio and MTV, who are more interested in playing Li’l Jon and that line of stuff which I categorically dislike. When friends play me stuff like Common, or Ghostface Killah I find myself saying, “I like that, if that was on the radio I’d definitely listen.” But it isn’t; just like I’m more likely to hear Hoobastank or Nickelback on the radio than The Strokes or Radio 4.
As many have noted, there’s nothing inherently interesting in the fact that you don’t like hip-hop. That’s your choice; fine. The problem was the categorical dismissal of the genre. I used to make statements about forms of art or music genres I didn’t like by declaring them to be crap, but that was about twenty years ago. I still to this day can’t listen to a country station for hours on end, but I just bought Brad Paisley’s “Alcohol” on iTunes - it’s a brilliant song, every bit as witty as an XTC or Squeeze song.
I think DragonAsh has backed off the more inflammatory statements, which is promising, I suppose, but my goal isn’t to make you like hip-hop. It’s to cast light on the short-sightedness of making such a sweeping pronouncement on an aspect of music you don’t like.
Hip-hop, like jazz, funk, and R&B before it, is a form of expression largely constructed by Black Americans. I have to admit it makes me wince when I hear someone challenge the legitimacy of these forms… nothing wrong with hating certain artists, certain aspects, but to blanket a form of music with such strong ties to a culture as being worthless is hurtful. I imagine it’s what an Indian person might feel if you heard a couple of bhagra songs and then wrote off the music as “sucking.” Note that I’m not saying “OMG tahts so raceist!!1!” - I just think it’s a jerky thing to disparage something you don’t have significant exposure to and make sweeping proclamations about its worth, value, the talent of artists in the genre, etc.
Actually, I was seriously considering it. Won’t necessarily be in the next day or two, but my interest has been piqued, as it were. I’ll keep you guys posted.
I love black people, honest, it’s just that things are so much less scary when they’re singing about how they’ve got sunshine on a rainy day and how I-ai-I will always love you!
You can say whatever you want and call it an opinion. I do care more about informed opinions than knee-jerk ones, and those of open-minded people to those of the closed, but hey, that’s just my opinion. It was also my opinion that you sounded like a fucking idiot earlier in this thread. You didn’t like that, and you accused me of attacking your character. But that’s just my opinion, what do you care what I think? But you did, and you got angry. So sometimes, people’s opinions can piss a person off. See what I mean?
The vitriol comes out when someone drops his drawers and takes a dump all over something you think is beautiful, without any basis in real world experience, unrepentantly, AND slanders your character (calling someone a cretin IS insulting). Wouldn’t you agree?
Nope, sorry. I disagree. At least, I disagree when it comes to well-done poetry. Or are you suggesting that Shakespeare was a hack?
Farewell! thou art too dear for my possessing,
And like enough thou know’st thy estimate:
The charter of thy worth gives thee releasing;
My bonds in thee are all determinate.
For how do I hold thee but by thy granting?
And for that riches where is my deserving?
The cause of this fair gift in me is wanting,
And so my patent back again is swerving.
Thyself thou gavest, thy own worth then not knowing,
Or me, to whom thou gavest it, else mistaking;
So thy great gift, upon misprision growing,
Comes home again, on better judgment making.
Thus have I had thee, as a dream doth flatter,
In sleep a king, but waking no such matter.
Because we all know there’s exactly one way to write a poem. :dubious:
The river sweats
Oil and tar
The barges drift
With the turning tide
Red sails
Wide
To leeward, swing on the heavy spar.
The barges wash
Drifting logs
Down Greenwich reach
Past the Isle of Dogs.
Weialala leia
Wallala leialala
Elizabeth and Leicester
Beating oars
The stern was formed
A gilded shell
Red and gold
The brisk swell
Rippled both shores
Southwest wind
Carried down stream
The peal of bells
White towers
Weialala leia
Wallala leialala
What in the hell does it mean? Or are you suggesting T.S. Eliot was a hack?
Hmm - ok the first song sure doesn’t sound like hip hop to me. The guitars especially give it a more R&B/funk feel. Good tune, could definitely dance to it - in fact I will likely be listening to this song a lot today - but does it really qualify as hip hop? The guy’s actually singing, for cryin’ out loud.
The second song is also quite listenable; but it’s almost an instrumental, and more melodic than other hip hop I’ve heard. Certainly nothing like mainstream hip hop, but I can say that I’d listen to this style of the genre.
I don’t recall whether anyone has already addressed this question since I was too busy following the near-vitriol, but I know that earlier on in the thread, someone asked about defining hip-hop.
My feeling (not based on anything more educated than having spent most of my 31 years listening to that and related genres) is that hip-hop is a very broad category of music that is best defined by the beats and rhythms used within. I think that both rap and a lot of current R&B are subsets of hip-hop music.
So after listening to the first song that DragonAsh commented on, I would say that it’s absolutely hip-hop, and that the singing has nothing to do with it. Along the same lines, I’d argue that some of Lauryn Hill’s music would be considered hip-hop even with her rap taken out of it.
If someone wants to take this particular discussion to another thread, I’d welcome it, but I also think that the actual definition of hip-hop is very relevant to this thread.
Never been a fan of Eliot, except for that Prufrock poem. I’ve always like WH Auden more for poetry of that time period. The Beatles, however, truly are the best pop band ever.
