Perhaps an IMHO thread on the order of “(Non-Christians): What is an effective method of witnessing to you?” would be helpful in showing H4e what, to us would be more effective and a more obvious demonstration of God’s love?
Of course, for this to work H4e would have to respect any of the respondents enough to abandon (to whatever extent) her current methodologies and try something less in-your-face.
It occurs to me that–from time to time–one has to come to acceptance that it doesn’t matter just how many seeds you sow onto stony ground. Stone is what it is. Seeds are what they are.
Put a slightly less opaque way, even a certain bodhisattva–well-regarded in some circles, including many that the historical-he probably wouldn’t feel too swell about being regarded by–didn’t despair at failure to be heard by the earless.
You want an angle, a wedge, some magic sequence of words that make stone not stone. But even the Word didn’t universally do that–how are mere words going to?
I’m not sure if that counts as a typical Pitticism or not. File accordingly.
gobear: I’m asking you to do this because, well, to be honest, I don’t have the poetic skill you’ve displayed. Here goes: See if you can tie in the biblical injunction against women preaching in the next verse. <extremely evil grin>
Yowza. I like this thread. Encore! Bravo!
Esprix
gobear
This thread would not be necessary if you’d wise up and “Wash that girl right outta your hair”.
Really! :rolleyes:
This is the weirdest thread I’ve ever read. Complete with dancing girls, Catholic Bishops, and musical numbers.
I think we’ve been over that before. Truth is, in my faith “witnessing” in the sense someone like Jack Chick or many literal-Bible folks understand it is inherently offensive. There is no “more effective” or “better way” to do this - only methods that are still offensive but less repellent than other methods.
I wish to emphasize that we do not oppose discussion of religion - indeed, comparative study of religions is a very common activity among us and strongly encouraged. It is the desire to change someone’s faith that we find so very offensive.
But it truly is foul to tar the whole with the sin/crime of the few - even if the few ARE the leaders. Should we assume all Germans are Nazis because the Nazis ruled Germany in WWII? Does a child born in Germany in 1992 bear the guilt of the Germans who killed the disabled and the Jews and the Gypsies in 1942? I would argue not.
The Catholic family down the street is not responsible for the pedophile priest committing a crime 1200 miles away. Indeed, it is the Catholics themselves who work hardest to uncover these deeds and see the perpetrators punished - because they know they will be judged by the actions of a few bad men. If people would drop their bigotry for a minute they would see that.
Yes, I most certainly disagree with much of what the Catholic church teaches. But it’s not MY church. And it must serve SOME need in peoples’ lives for there to be some many Catholics. Nor are some of your objections - such as denial of birth control to women - by any means restricted to just Catholics.
So get off your high-horse, gobear - it’s just as bigoted an narrow minded to say all Catholics are X as to say all homosexuals are X.
Sounds to me like you are, as they say in my faith, haunted by your former church. Which makes it YOUR issue more than anyone else’s.
But if one method is less repellant than another method, wouldn’t it be a better way? In the sense that, say, it’s easier to run with three toddlers on your back than one?
Guin, as ever, you awe me by your imitation of Christ’s minstry. How much shorter the New Testament would have been had the Gospel writers changed Jesus’s condemantion of the religious hypocrites of His day from, “Woe unto thee, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites that thou art,” to “Fuck you!”
Catholics are not an ethnic minority that cannot change its hue or its accent; they are members of a corporation, an extremely corrupt one. And your atttempt to Godwinize the conversation is laughable. A more apt comparison would be to Enron or Arthur Andersen. While the rank and file are ionnocent of wrongdoing, their leaders are dishonest, and remaining with the corporation so riddled with vice means compromising one’s morals.
It’s a lot easier for Buster, er, Billy Rubin to label a critic a “bigot” rather than to face one’s support of a wicked institution. A pity the Diet of Worms didn’t think to call Martin Luther a bigot and whine about the Catholic Church being discriminated against.
I suggest that you read the reportage of the Boston Globe, compied in the book, Betrayal, that describes the Church’s recycling of pedophile priests from parish to parish, keeping parents in the dark and exposing gnerations of children to danger. Read how the Chruch officials, including but not limited to Cardinal Law, knew that pedophile priests were harming children and instead of getting rid of the predators, turned on the victims.
To say the problem was limited to one priest is to show that you are either a liar or a fool.
And what of the good priests who are working to get this out in the open? The bishops who profess zero tolerance-and argue at the Vatican when ordered to reinstate an accused priest?
What about those who truly believe in the spiritual beliefs of Catholicism?
Should they give it all up because YOU disapprove?
Pot, thou art black.
I have no quarrel with the spiritual beleifs of Catholicism (well, no more than I usually do with belief in the supernatural).
No, the pot is not black because I do not support an institution that shields child molesters.
And I apologize for calling **Billy Rubin ** a liar and fool. I’m just going to assume that he has not read the news for a while. I’d rather be charitable.
[quote]
“Less repellent” does not equal “better”. It would be “less repellent” to me if you broke my left arm in one place rather than my right arm in two, but I wouldn’t describe it as “better”.
I do understand that H4E’s religion requires “witnessing” and evagelizing. Just as I have to tolerate music that is abhorent to me, or am aware that there are TV programs I find objectionable being aired whether I watch them myself or not, I understand that there must be room in our pluralistic society for H4E’s religious activities. Thus, when I meet up with people in a public forum (such as this) I abide by rules as much as possible and do not mention at their every post “I find this offensive and objectionable”. After all, they have just as much right to their beliefs as I do to mine.
About the only thing I can think of that I do NOT find objectionable is when a devout Christian says something along the lines of “Well, I believe the Bible and the Bible says X, and because of that I can’t agree with your position.” But you notice, this is in no way a call for me to accept Jesus, seek salvation in a monotheistic system or otherwise “evangelism”. This does not, however, seem to satsify the majority of such Christians. I don’t mind discussing their value system, their holy literature, or views on a subject. What I disagree with is their attitude that I must be converted.
I wish I had better ways of conveying how I feel about this - part of the problem is that, because I was raised in America, even if it wasn’t in a Christian household, I am still familar with the vocabularly of Christianity and many of its basic principals. Christians, however, typically lack a common ground for discussion of MY faith. The idea that you can have large numbers of people believing in common ideas and values, yet wholly without an official “manual”, and without a hierarchy and established authority to settle matters of doctrine, is extremely foreign to most Christians. The fact that, amongst ourselves, we have some pretty raucaus debates only adds to the confusion.
There is the church-as-corporation and the church-as-a-community-of-believers. While I would argue that adult converts are making a concious choice to join the “church as corporation”, certainly those raised in the church from infancy are NOT making a choice - they are not permitted to. If, for no other reason, you can not tar EVERY Catholic with the same brush, because not all of those within the church are old enough or experienced enough to make a true choice.
As for the notion that religion is somehow wholly voluntary – even in America that is not entirely true. I have seen people despised for being of a Catholic family, even if they themselves have converted to another religion. There are assumptions that someone of a certain ethinic group is Catholic, whether they are or not. While a person’s BELIEF may change, to a large degree the socia entanglements and baggage of their childhood religion is never entirely left behind. This baggage is even worse in other countries, where what religion you are can have massive repercussions in regards to income, housing, education, and politcal power.
Then there is the issue of do you abandon an organization, or do you try to reform it from within. But that’s probably a different rant.
What is “Godwinize”? I have never heard the term before.
Of course, the fact that these same people must support their families and pay their bills has absolutely no weight - they should act on the highest moral ground possible, consequences be damned. It’s one thing to walk off a job on principal when you are single - quite another when you have to go home to children too young to understand why PBJ’s and beans-n-rice are now such strongly featured entrees at dinner, why they have to move to a smaller home, or why they’re suddenly shopping for school clothes at the Salvation Army instead of the trendy mall.
Not to mention that, because of attitudes such as yours, even if such a person WANTED to leave the corporation to make a moral point, their odds of being swiftly hired elsewhere are greatly diminished - even when the new employers KNOWS they are innocent of wrong-doing!
So… which is truly less objectionable? Taking steps to insure the survival of your family, or walking off a job from a corporation of questionable morality? Just how bad is the corruption? What are the consequences of either action? This is NOT a simple problem when dealing with real-world situations.
You’re taking the analogy I provided too far. We’re talking about religion, not livelihood.
No, that is indeed the crux of the biscuit and this hijack.
OH NOOO!! Where’s the singing?! Where Les Miserables! Where’s the FUUUUUUNY!!! 
Show me the FUNY!!!
I’m glad life is so simple for you, and you’re so casually and easily dismissive of things which you have no stake in.
Some of us though don’t simply give up and walk away from our beleifs and our Church because something bad happens, because it falters.
Some of us stick for the good things, and to change the bad things if we can, because any idiot knows that the failings are failings of individuals, and as long as you have individuals as part of a group some of those individuals will act poorly.
It’s the human condition, and it doesn’t change through blanket dismissals and scorn. It changes because people stick and work to change it.
Here’s the mission statement to the Catholic Church I took my wife and daughter to this morning.
Let’s see what it is that this branch of this dismissable organization is doin this week in the monthly newsletter, shall we?
Some memorials and request for prayers for the sick the troubled and the dead
A request to save your box tops to certain products for “The Box Tops for Education” program that’s been an ongoing project for the local schools.
An outreach with a Lutheran Services group to provide assistance to a mother and daughter who were burned out of their house.
Another outreach to provide toys for Christmas to underprivileged local children and a good holiday meal to their families in their homes (We deliver the toys and the turkeys)
A suggestion to buy the locally produced “Bonus Books” which are being produced by a consortium of local charities.
Somebody looking for some help with the local cubscouts.
A “Giving Tree.” The names and hopes of the local children of locally incarcerated men. It says we can pick up a tag, buy a gift for the kid ($10.00-$25.00) and the kid gets the gifrt from his father.
Coffee and donuts are available downstairs after mass for any and all comers.
Pointsettias, Apple raisin cinnamon bread, and fruitcakes are on sale as a Church fundraiser.
A request to purchase gift cards for local retailers, and chains through the Parish office, to support the downtown merchants through a tough holiday season, and they in turn will make a small donation to the outreach of their choosing.
More fruitcakes for sale. Doesn’t say for what.
Bloodmobile schedule, and encouragement to donate a pint.
An outreach to the local Hispanic American Center (we have a lot of migrant workers around here.) “We are planning a Christmas festival for those Hispanic families in our community who are in a state of transition. These families are usually struggling financially, and we are asking for donations of baby dolls, toys, balls, and other children’s items to be distributed to families during the festival. When purchasing or donating items please keep in mind that children range from age 0-12.”
A pro-life thought: “Taking the moral high ground to promote a consistent ethic of life means that, at times, we must swim against the tide of public opinion…”
$1,926 was raised for the Migrant ministry so far this year, and $1,172.45 of it has been spent so far in aid and support.
March for Life, Pro life rally is coming up. Bus trip to DC.
Breakfast with Santa for the public is coming up
Need wrapping paper and volunteers to wrap presents for some of the above programs.
A Christian business dinner with a speaker “surviving the Grand Canyons of Life” is coming up.
An outreach with the St. Vincent De Paul society providing "manna bags’ of food for the needy on Thanksgiving is proud to say that they’ve gotten the usual tremendous support from the parishioners but are still taking donated food items and Turkey Sponsors.
The Elizabeth ministry is encouraging mothers in need of spiritual, financial, babysitting, infertility help, help dealing with a miscarriage, a friendly, ear, a child crisis, adoption or another need to call. They would like to help.
Some pious quotes
Some operational issues
Some Sunday School issues.
Some of this may seem small silly or pedestrian to you, and you may not agree with all of the sentiments being expressed, or the quaint little naive faith and beliefs of the people.
Some of it feels that way to me.
But this is what our church is doing today, and in pretty much every other town in the country there’s a similar institution doing the same thing. All of this is being done and organized by the institution of the Catholic Church.
Some of these people screw up. Some of these people make mistakes that hurt other people. Some of these people act small petty and mean.
They are human beings. That’s why. The failings have nothing to do with the fact that they are Catholic, but that they are human.
What did you do today?
Does it even come close to what my little small town arm of an “extremely corrupt corporation” did?
Okay, now I AM seeing red.
At one point, my father had to stay in a job he despised, for a crooked boss, because he had no other alternative. It’s fine and good for you to sit there and your high horse, but how DARE you go out and blame people for trying to SURVIVE in this world?
My father would love to leave his job-he had an opportunity, and got screwed. The noble thing would have been to say-let them try and sue me-and leave. HOWEVER, when you have a family, a house, a car, and a lot of responsibilities, sometimes you just have to suck it up and deal with it.
My FATHER is very active in our parish. He’s a Eucharistic minister, an usher, and at various times he’s served on the cemetary committee and Parish Council-the latter of which he was once voted president of. He is a VERY devout Catholic, as is my mother. THEY do NOT like at all what happened. To insinuate, that by remaining Catholic, they’re supporting what went on-well, guess what? That, to me, makes you just as bad as His4ever, if not worse (because obviously, you of all people should know better).
If you’ll recall, a while back, I posted about a priest in the Pittsburgh area who was censored for ranting about the way the Vatican is dealing with this. Guess what? I’m related to that priest.
How does it feel to be so superior to those of us who are “superstitious and supporting child molestors?” How does it feel?
It’s nice that your local church does happy little things for your community. Selling fruitcakes and organzing Christian business dinners so outweighs hundreds, if not thousands, of incidences of child molestation hushed by by the Church’s bishops and cardinals and the repeated child molestations enabled by bishops who shuttled troublesome priests from parish to parish, never warning parents about the danger to their kids.
I’m glad the church makes you happy, Scylla. I just hope that it never gives you any cause to grieve.
Very well, thank you.
Uh, reread what you wrote; your priestly relation was CENSORED. Does that not give you any clue that maybe there’s a problem with the organization doing the censoring?