Aw, c’mon, Poly - call 'em on the carpet! I completely agree with the spirit, if not the tone of this thread - if you’re going to judge others (and I don’t much distinguish between “you’re going to hell” and “love the sinner, hate the sin”) on a public message board, then it’s fair to be called out on it on the same public message board.
Quid pro, eh?
Esprix
I gotta disagree, **Esprix. you and I are fair game for criticism because we are open about our sexuality. If we were closeted, would we want people prying into our affairs? In the smae manner, JerseyDiamond and Joe_Cool have chosen to keep the details of their relationship private, and their wishes should be respected. People ought not to be expected to spill their innermost secrets for public edification. If they are guilty of violating Biblical statutes, then their consciences will convict them. It’s their business, not ours. Even though they hate my guts, I’m not going to treat them any differently than I would wish to be treated.
I’m not a Christian, so I won’t act like a Christian and return hate for hate, tempting as it may be (it’s certainly my first inclination) I’d rather be an ethical atheist and return their hate with forbearance.
gobear, closeted folks wouldn’t be sharing their personal lives in the first place, which is not only what you and I might do, but obviously what Joe and Jersey have already done - we all know they’re engaged, right? I learned the very hard way that when you put personal information on a public message board, it will come back to haunt you. That’s their problem to deal with now, just like you or I might also have to deal with it.
And if they’d shared their lives without the added baggage of their condemnation of others, perhaps they wouldn’t be in such a sticky wicket in the first place, eh?
Oh, and bully for them for their impending vows and happy marriage (and ostensibly His, too). What a pity you nor I can partake of that same state-approved (or, in some cases, church-approved) marriage - and even more a pity they don’t support that right for us.
Esprix
Esprix, I take your point. They’ve said they believe in living by the standards of the Bible, and that it’s usually to be read literally unless “obviously” figurative. And they have indeed announced their marriage. Which is why a more-politely-worded inquiry would IMHO have been informative. We do know Jersey has a child, and IIRC has mentioned having been married previously. And, of course, they’re “flaunting their heterosexuality” by announcing their impending marriage.
However, I think gobear has the right of it – eye for eye and tooth for tooth only results in a bunch of blind toothless Pitizens. But, while I cannot speak for His4Ever, I know that Joe at least (and I’m confident that Jersey shares his view on this) is in favor of civil marriages for gay people, just stenuously opposed to religious ceremonies for them on the basis of his understanding of what God considers right and wrong. (See a marathon Pitting of him started by gobear a couple of weeks ago.)
And, gobear, I’ve decided that your -bear appellation refers not to any putative hairiness but to the fact that you can make sentences like this that grab on and bite:
Ouch.
Surely you wouldn’t want to wish the Dr. Boyfriend mess on anyone else, not even, as in this case, on your worst enemies? In any event, they have shared their engagement and marriage, but they have not revealed the circumstances of their betrothal or their individual pasts. Until they do, we should be better than they are and not pry.
No, they don’t support marriage for us. No, they don’t regard us as human beings worthy of respect. Yes, they despise gay people.
But if **Kirkland[/]'s self-immolation taught me anything, it’s that hate consumes the hater more than it does the hated. If we yell at them and humilate them, it will only strengthen them in their bigotry. But if we engage in a campaign of satyagraha, fighting their hate with forbearance, exposing their lies with truth, then we might be able to use their consciences as weapons against them.
As I understand it, Joe does not believe in the legitimacy of civil marriage in the eyes of God, so it doesn’t matter to him to him whether gay people get civil marriages. While it can be fairly said that he is OK with gay people getting civil marriages, it’s not really a ringing endorsement, since to him the only real marriage is in the Church, which is emphatically off-limits to gay folks. If I misstated his stance, I hope he will correct me.
In any event, I am on Joe’s side in this matter; the details of his relationship with JD are not meant for public entertainment.
gobear, FTR, who said I hate them? I just enjoy watching them get a taste of what we get from them. I will also reiterate that the tone of this thread has crossed a few lines, but I still agree with its intent.
And as far as “wishing the same situation on them,” it’s best we learn these things first hand. vanilla went through it and came out shining - let’s hope the OP’s targets have the chutzpah to do the same.
Poly, I’m encouraged by their support of civil unions (and must have missed where they said so - I can’t read every thread on the Dope, try as I might). However, I’m still fervently in support of changing (generic) Christianity’s mind about how I live my life. Again, it’s times like these that remind me why I’ve never bought into Christianity.
Esprix
And just FTR, Joe did say that he was in favor of gay civil unions.
Well, as you and gobear have graciously stated, our lives are not open for public inspection, and even had the question been asked graciously and politely, it’s not something I’d be willing to discuss on a public MB. However, I’ll talk to her and see if it’s ok to discuss it with you via e-mail.
No, you’ve summarized my stance pretty accurately, though I’m bothered by the fact that you phrase it so negatively. The fact is that the Bible says what it says. If you believe it’s ok, great. If you believe the Bible doesn’t have the authority to tell you how to live your life, fine. That’s all your business and not mine. You don’t answer to me, nor would I want you to. However, when people say the Bible doesn’t forbid it, I might speak up. Or, more likely, I might decide that it isn’t really worth my time to read and say the same things over and over again, and not even bother with threads regarding the “correctness” of homosexuality. After all, it’s really not a major tenet of my faith. The only reason I’ve wasted as much time as I have so far is that some people feel the need to post personal attacks when they encounter opposing viewpoints.
…Which brings me to this:
Simply not true. I don’t hate you, and I don’t despise “gay people” (though there are some gay people whom I strongly dislike - NOT at all the same thing).
Now, as for not regarding you (personally) as worthy of respect, I wouldn’t go quite that far, though I certainly don’t hold you in the esteem I used to. But keep in mind two things: 1. It’s not because you’re gay, and 2. It’s your own doing.
I always thought you were very cool and very intelligent, and seeing your name on a thread was often reason enough for me to open it, since your posts were often funny and informative, and always interesting – And guess what? I knew you were gay. That ended when I realized your tendency to rabidly attack anybody who disagrees with you, and keep up the attack until they sign off on a list of appeasement concessions for you. This is a bunch of crap. People have the right not to agree with gobear, believe it or not. To be honest, even though I do hold the views you summarized above, I was very tempted to say otherwise, just so that it didn’t appear that I was trying to make you happy. I actually feel dirty for holding views that you agree with and approve of, if you can believe that.
So remember that oftentimes when people don’t like or respect you, it might be because of your attitude and treatment of them rather than who you have sex with. You can’t blame everything on being gay.
I have no intention of trying to change your mind on the subject of homosexuality, and, Esprix’s wishes notwithstanding, nobody is going to change my mind on the issue either. So why not relax and accept the fact that you can’t force everybody to like what you like?
Thanks.
Esprix -
I’ve seen you post a number of times about how we’re getting back a taste of what we’ve given you. HUH? What have I said to you? When have JD or I attacked you? I honestly don’t remember ever talking to or about you before, unless it was the occasional comment on something I found amusing or slightly interesting. And if that is even the case, I’m fairly sure I haven’t said anything to you at all in the last year or 2. So your accusations are really pretty ridiculous - I don’t take you seriously enough to dislike you. Your handy-drive-by style of posting is amusing on occasion, but mostly just background noise, and I don’t care to take part in your “ask the gay guy” threads because they just don’t interest me. So you might want to ease off trying to play the martyr with people who have done nothing to you aside from holding differeing opinions.
I’m in no such place. I don’t value your opinion highly enough to worry about what you think of me. And I don’t mean any offense when I say that. I’m only pointing out the fact that you’re only some random complete stranger to me, so why should your opinion of me (or mine of you, for that matter) hold any importance at all? There are few people in real life - and many fewer online - whose opinions matter to me, and you’re not one of them. So I fail to see how I’m in “a sticky wicket” because you don’t know the details of my personal life.
Well, if you want a state-approved marriage, call your congressman. Vote. Do whatever you think you have to do. It’s not my business and not my fault that you can’t.
And why are you so concerned about whether a church that you are not a part of approves of your relationship? You’re not a Christian, and you (as far as I know) have no desire to be one, so why do you care if a Christian church will marry you? I said before, your belongings should go to whoever you want when you die. People important to you should be able to see you in the hospital, regardless of who they are. Live with whoever you want. And if you want joint insurance, call your agent and pester them, because I don’t have anything to do with it. I don’t remember ever seeing a line on the ballot where I get to vote on who gets covered by an insurance company.
And to close,
Hmm. I don’t recall ever having met you, and I certainly don’t recall either of us discussing our past relationships with you. You may have heard something in person, but definitely not from either of us.
In the future, I’ll thank you get to some clue of what you’re talking about before you go butting into our lives, slandering us, and starting irrelevant and factually incorrect pile-ons. Oh… or didn’t you think that would happen? :rolleyes:
Yes, it’s a bunch of crap because it’s not true.
Well, that certainly speaks volumes about you, doesn’t it? That you would consider practicing deceit just to annoy me says a lot about your character. It’s not about “making me happy,” it’s about sticking up for what’s right, and in this instance, what’s right is defending you and your wife’s right to privacy. Doing the right thing and efending people who are being bullied unfairly are important, and in this case, it’s you and JD being picked on, and I will continue to defend you on this matter.
See, you still don’t get it-- I * like* being gay because I like who I am. If you don’t, that’s your loss cause I’m actually a pretty good guy.
Well, let’s see. You said:
Which was as gobear wrote it:
Given that, you hurt me. It doesn’t matter if you’ve directed your comments to me by name - you have directed them to me by nature. It offends me to the core that a religious institution (or, more accurately, a bigoted few within that institution who interpret their religious texts as they see fit) stands and judges one of the core facets of my whole human being. Your perpetuating that bigotry hurts me, because it is that bigotry that denies me the respect I deserve as a human being. I may not share kirk’s viritrol, but I understand quite clearly where he’s coming from.
Interesting you say that, since that’s what the OP of this thread was all about (and AFAICT the question still hasn’t been answered).
Nor I you. Sadly, your discriminatory attitude does hurt me, in a societal sense, and therefore I shall continue to rail against it.
Yeah, I’m the king of drive-by posters. Those four threads are all one-shots on my part. :rolleyes:
I shall continue to vote and do what I can to enjoy the same rights you do. But even if you had merely a complacent attitude, I’d still say you’re contributing to the problem. I’m sure you disagree, but that’s how I see it.
Two reasons - my Christian brothers and sisters who are denied by their own faith the right to share their lives together in matrimony, and, again, because the larger Christian church is, by and large, standing firmly against my rights as a human being (notwithstanding my civil rights as well).
Esprix
Isn’t it?
You’re the one who doesn’t get it. I’m sure you do like being gay. But you can’t blame the way people treat you on the fact that you are gay. People treat you based on the way you treat them. I dislike you because you act like a jerk and treat people abusively, not because you were gay. Before you started your campaign of personal attacks, as I’ve said probably a dozen times already, I liked you, knowing that you are gay. Once I saw the way you like to spearhead these dogpiles on everyone who doesn’t work to advance your personal agenda, I decided you’re a jerk and since then hold very little respect for you.
Has nothing to do with your being gay. Do whoever you want to do. It has nothing to do with my opinion of you. I dislike you for who you are, not who you have sex with.
No, let me retract and apologize for that last statement. I dislike you for the way you act, not for who you are. I don’t know you, so I can’t say that.
Yeah, and those four threads are the whole of your posting history, right? Let’s see…according to the search function, those four threads are a mere .16% of the 2467 threads you’ve posted on. So obviously, if you’ve maintained 4 threads that means you don’t drive-by. :rolleyes: yourself.
This is such an amazingly stupid statement, I’m stunned. You might not be a homophobe. I’ll take your word on that, it’s not an argument I’m interested in getting into. But you do know that there are people out there who hate gays no matter how nice and charming and polite the gay person in question might be, don’t you? And that gobear, being a gay guy, has met far more than his fair share* of these assholes, right? He might be unfairly lumping you in with these other assholes. Like I said, I’m not getting within a country mile of that arguement. But to say that everyone who’s ever given gobear shit has done so because he was a jerk to them first is, like I said, stunningly stupid.
[sub]*“More than his fair share” meaning “at least one.”[/sub]
Fuck! That quite was from Joe_Cool, not gobear. Obviously, Joe’s not the only person making stunningly stupid statements around here.
Ooo! Zing! Got me!
Now try answering some of the questions put to you, pinhead.
Esprix
See, I call being willing to make an abject apology in return for your clearing up a misconception a compromise, but you think of it as “appeasement concessions.” Again, that says a great deal about you.