So, you find it is not your place to make THAT judgement, yet you freely make so many others, hiding behind a book that has never been substantiated for validity or authenticity.
Nice.
Look at the thread title again.
:wally
I’ve pointed out to Joe that he needs to tone it down, as I, too, am trying to do. He doesn’t seem to understand that there’s a middle path between being a supine wimp and a hurler of vile invective. And, when someone presents himself as an apostle of Christ, his behavior ought to reflect that. It doesn’t mean lying down and taking abuse, but it also doesn’t mean that you can act like one of the unsaved, either.
As I already told Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond, I have forgiven them for their trespasses as I hope they will forgive mine.
Dredging up past hate and choler impedes any possible reconcilation between the various aggrieved parties. It’s Christmas time, folks; can’t we have peace on earth and good will towards all people?
One more time, I haven’t judged anybody. You guys live in this fictional world where everybody who disagrees with you is a horrible person walking in the image of hitler himself, but it just doesn’t match up with reality.
If you want to talk about things I’ve actually done or said, fine. Let’s talk. But if you just want to shout about your imagined strawmen, you’re wasting your time and mine.
The details of my marriage and our personal histories are not yours to investigate, nor will they ever be. So just get over it. I’m not obligated to defend myself against every stupid accusation leveled against me, and I will not. Homebrew made raised his accusation and said, in essense, “There. You’re hypocrites. Prove me wrong.” And I won’t stoop to that. If you have some proof of our hypocrisy, then let’s see it. Otherwise, get a life.
Thanks for the kind words, gobear.
I agree with you completely on this, and I do indeed know of the existence of a middle ground between the two extremes. As I’m sure you’ve noticed, this is still one of my struggles, but I’m working on it. Be assured that I’m trying to tone down my posts, but it can be difficult when nobody cares what a person has to say, and needs only to read a username before they start hurling insults (as you can see in Jerseydiamond’s gays in the military thread).
As I told you before, it’s all in the past and it’s all forgiven. Just want to be sure that’s clear.
It gets very difficult to keep an even temper when I find myself in these discussions spending all my time trying to shoot down a straw hydra. No matter how many false accusations I address, seven or ten or a dozen more pop up for each one. And of course when the strawmen fail, the insults start to roll in. :rolleyes: sigh
Polycarp, I didn’t ignore your e-mail. In fact, I still have it on my desk and intend to continue that conversation with you. But, things have been pretty hectic lately, what with the wedding and Christmas and all. And I appreciate your keeping that mail private as you said you would, though I’m considering releasing the privacy concern so we can maybe discuss it further in a public forum if you’d like (although I’m a little wary of trying to have any sort of serious discussion with my crowd of admirers following me around from thread to thread ;)). I’ll get back to you on that in e-mail.
“Haven’t judged anybody?” Hah!
Who posted this:
You’re right, that certainly wasn’t in response to an attack on my wife and my marriage… :rolleyes:
Can’t you do better than that?
But you’re willing to say things like this:
The quote noted there reads:
What I’m seeing there is an admonition from you to another Christian, with the added implication that, since she says she’s a Christian, she’s not heeding the Bible - and therefore isn’t really a Christian.
Again, accusing her of disregarding the Bible - not a “real” Christian in your view.
Your continued attacks prove again and again the kind of person you actually are. Maybe you should go read that Bible of yours sometime yourself.
Esprix
Don’t have to do better than that, Joe. After all, you’ve already put the whole Bible into play with your comment about disregarding it. Looks to me like you’re not only picking & choosing what from the Bible you should follow, but also picking and choosing what particular parts of life the Bible should apply to.
And I don’t get to do this enough on this board, so I’m availing myself of a rare opportunity to quote the esteemed Esprix:
Time TF Out! Who’s bashing Christians here? Nobody other than the folks mentioned in the OP. The rest of the folks here are pointing out hypocrisy. The kind folks at Merriam-Webster have supplied this information regarding that particular word:
As to definition one: That appears that y’all want the rest of the planet to follow the book you don’t follow.
As to definition two: One instance is mentioned in the OP and Esprix has mentioned another. Read the thread for other instances.
I think it is precisely because I need a life that I found a few things that, indeed, we could talk about. 
So you agree that adultery is the only grounds for divorce, as stated axiomatically in the Bible - that it is a sin. It has also been pointed out that the Bible also clearly states that remarriage is considered adultery.
I believe all the Biblical passages posted previously in this thread show you just that.
I mean, after all, in that same post you say in your own words:
I think you may have missed the mark on this one.
But, oh, we don’t want to be mean or anything, Joe - you deserve to be treated the same as everyone. It’s just that, well, as you so aptly put it:
We’re just the messenger - merely pointing out from the Bible where you have erred.
But the issue of your adultery aside, let’s talk about your view of the sin of homosexuality - specifically, same-sex marriages:
Although we appreciate your support of governmental civil unions, pardon us if we take umbrage that we’re not entitled to be married in a state of loving union. (Thankfully, not all churches feel the way you do.)
Like, say, adultery? I will point out (as was pointed out to you once before) that you have said more about the “sin homosexuality” on this board than any other sin. If they are equal in your eyes, where’s your umbrage at other, I daresay more socially relevant sins?
You mean like the way you’re picking and choosing your stance on remarriage? I also daresay this is another example of you deciding who is and who isn’t a “real” Christian. (Oh, but you’ve said it’s ok to judge those “inside the church,” so that’s ok then.)
On the question of condemning others:
I guess a lot of people are condemned, then. Kind of like blaming the rape vicitim, IMHO, but that’s your belief - “If she hadn’t dressed that way, maybe she wouldn’t have been attacked.” Similarly, “Maybe if they’d just accepted Jesus, they wouldn’t be burning in that lake of fire.”
And all that psychological research is meaningless, as what’s in the Bible is in the Bible, period.
I’ll ask you a flat-out question - read the list of sins clearly stated in the Bible that I posted to Jersey and tell me why those have changed over the years, yet homosexuality has not? I’m rather confused - if they’re all the same, why do some get a free pass and some don’t?
I’m happy to provide such a statement:
So, factually, you’ve said everyone is going to hell and sentenced to damnation. You put qualifiers on it, sure, but you backed up your statement with quotes from the Bible - and with those quotes, anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus Christ as their savior will, indeed, be headed to hell. Technically, you didn’t name names, no - but you pointed a finger at everyone in the world (yourself included), and took the time to include those of us who are not Christian and/or accepted Jesus.
So there it is. You asked for some quotes, and I provided them. I’m happy to be of service.
Esprix
Yes, Esprix. I think I’ve been pretty clear about where I stand regarding divorce and remarriage. But your proof is incomplete. Now, show me how all those words about divorce being adultery and precluding the possibility of marriage apply to me.
But, since you don’t know the details of our personal lives, nor will you ever, you’ll just have to believe me (or not - but either way you’re not getting a peek into our history) when I say that they don’t apply to us. So why not just shut up about it already?
Good. Then step into one of the many churches that will sanction your relationship and have at it. But I still don’t understand. Why are you so fired up about not being able to have your relationship sanctified by a God you don’t believe in, and a church you don’t want any part of? 
Heck, I can’t be married in a Catholic church, because I’m not Catholic. But you don’t see me crying about it. That’s just the way it is.
Tell you what: You show me all the threads where I’ve been called out and challenged to defend my beliefs on other sins, or where proponents of those sins argue that they aren’t, in fact, sins. That’s where you’ll find it. And you’re right - many, many other sins are much more socially relevant and hold much more importance in my worldview than does homosexuality. But the problem here isn’t me - it’s all the one-trick gay ponies, who don’t have anything better to do than to insult those of us who don’t believe the same things as they do about homosexuality.
I’m not picking and choosing anything about remarriage. Nor have I decided who is or isn’t a “real” Christian. We are to judge our own - and that means those who claim the label “Christian”. I was taking issue with something that many Christians of the liberal stripe do. That is my prerogative as a Christian. My only mistake was doing it in a public forum rather than in private.
No, it’s not like blaming a rape victim. Did somebody hold you down and force you not to believe in Jesus? I doubt it.
The Bible says what it says, and Jesus said what he said, regardless of whether I tell you about it or not. The fact is, Jesus himself said “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18 NIV)” If you hear that and say “well, I don’t believe in him,” then your own words are condemning you.
If you want to make analogies, let me give you a better one. Suppose John tells you “if you walk off this ledge, you’ll fall and die on the rocks below,” and you say “F you, pal, you can’t tell ME how to live!” and walk off anyway. Guess what: it’s your own actions that condemned you, not John.
I stand by what I said above. That is what I believe. But, I don’t recall where it says that in the Bible. In fact, I don’t recall ever saying that was in the Bible, or that it was anything other than my own opinion. Maybe you can point that out for me.
But yes, I think the majority of psychology is B.S. masquerading as science. So if you were to say "Gosh, Joe Cool, this latest psychological study says that … " I’d probably ignore you.
I’m not getting baited into another 10-page argument full of strawmen. I’ve posted prodigiously on the topic of why some things from the OT are no longer applicable and others are. If you want to know what I think, you can find it here.
As you say, I backed up my statements with quotes from the Bible. So it appears that, once again, your problem is with God and with the Bible, not with me. I don’t condemn anyone, I’ve only reported what the Bible says. Judgment is God’s domain, not mine.
So we just have to take it on your word that you aren’t using some loophole or your own alternate interpretation. Fine. But dodging the question doesn’t make you more credible.
In this very thread, His4Ever has admitted to being on her third marriage. I haven’t seen you castigate her for being an adultress. That seems to us on the other end of your wagging finger as a double standard.
I’m not dodging any question. I’m saying that our personal details are none of your damn business, so it’s a question you’re not entitled to ask, let alone get an answer to. See the difference? Have you stopped beating your wife?
I already said what I think about that. Remarrying after a divorce is sin. Period. No matter who does it. But leaving her current husband to address past wrongs would be even more wrong.
What do you want me to do, open a new thread in the pit and savage her the way you do? Not likely.
Anyway, so you found a Christian that isn’t perfect. Big surprise. Gosh, I never saw that one coming. :rolleyes:
I may have missed it in one of the other threads, or earlier in this one, but why do you say that?
Dr. J
Think about it. H4E’s first husband was abusive and evil. How could a loving God want her to remain in such a sham of a marriage or want her to stay alone and unloved after leaving that marriage? I’m a fallen creature, and I would never condemn her for leaving, so how could God?
To tewll the truth, I would like everybody to back the fuck the fuck off JC and JD. I think it’s obvious that there is some painful history involved here and nobody’s agenda is advanced by exploiting that pain. It seems to me that the surest way to show Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond the superior value of compassion is to be compassionate.
Sure, it makes me angry that their religious beliefs dictate that my love for my boyfriend is inferior to their love, that I am sinful for loving a man.
My answer is not to match anger for anger, bile for bile, but to examine my life and behavior, clear away anger and fear, and heap coals of fire on their heads by returning love for hate.
I genuinely wish that I could discuss this religious experience I have been having and thic conviction that I need to be kinder and more merciful. But the Christians despise me, and the nob-Christians think me a fool or an appeaser for wanting to promote peace.
Because how is dissolving another marriage better? Then you have two divorces, rather than one (for the moment, disregarding the divorce due to abuse). Two ex-husbands. Two broken hearts. Two broken lives. Two destroyed families.
Tell me how that is in line with the spirit of Jesus’s command not to divorce. Especially when viewed through the lens of the two “Great Commandments”: Love God above everything else, and love your neighbor as yourself; Heaping more damage on top of damage and more sin on top of sin doesn’t make anything better. Breaking more vows doesn’t make right the vows she broke in the past.
gobear:
Speaking for Jerseydiamond and myself, we do not despise you. I know I’ve said some pretty unkind things to you in the recent past, but keep in mind that what I said was said in anger, and it was wrong for me to have said those things. I don’t expect you ever to consider me somebody you’d discuss anything as personal as a religious experience with, but please don’t think we hate you, either.
Well that doesn’t really matter, does it? You’ve said it yourself - if it’s in the Bible, we don’t have much of a choice about obeying God’s word as given to us, written down, that will still be around in 10,000 years (your own words).
So why does remarriage get a free pass when gay people, who hurt no one with their love, do not?
This is the hypocrisy we’re pointing out to you.
Esprix
Free Pass? Says who? Because breaking more vows is worse than just the ones already broken, that means there’s a free pass? Quit putting words in my mouth.
Anyway, sin is sin. All sin can be forgiven, if repented (and I’ve said this before. Don’t try to pretend I’m hedging). If His4ever truly belongs to Christ, then her sins are forgiven. That doesn’t mean that our sins aren’t sin, it doesn’t mean we have a free pass, and it doesn’t mean that we should “continue in sin, that grace may abound.”
That’s not hypocrisy. Yes, she was wrong to remarry, and even more wrong to divorce and remarry again. But that doesn’t mean that it would be better to divorce a third time. It doesn’t mean that she deserves the hate you (collectively) have shown her, and it doesn’t mean that she’s forever branded and incapable of growing as a Christian.
But if God wants you you stay in a loveless marriage where your hubby uses you for a punching bag and hose servant (and that is all too common in our society), how could possibly imagine that this God loves you???
Gobear
I’m a Christian, and I don’t despise you. Please share.