Thank you, Joe. The thing is, I want to be able discuss these things with you because I want to love you. I want to love JerseyDiamond. I want to love Hastur. I want to love Esprix. I want to love Libertarian. I want to love Jodi. I want to love His4Ever. There’s more to say, but that’s for another time and another thread. But I do want to be your friend.
Frankly, I don’t think H4e sinned for divorcing her first husband. He was abusive and cruel, and whatever Jesus may have meant by His words about divorce, there’s no way he could have meant for her to stay in a house ruled by fear and pain. If there is a God, the He must want us to be happy, not tormented. Whatever has happened in H4E’s life to make her marry and divorce a second time, God must have a much vaster knowledge of. He must know her circumstances and her psychology and he must know how much choice she may have had and what, if any, resposibility she bears for the failure of her marriages. But that is between her and God, just as Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond’s pasts are between them and God. Nobody else can know what goes in someone’s head, how they wewre raised and what unconscious mechanisms might make people choose unwise paths.
Similarly, I would like people to lay off me for being gay. That’s something that is out of my control; clearly, God must have intended this for me. If the words of the Bible seem to contradict this, then they are not being understood properly. My life is better for being with someone who loves me, and that must be what God (if he exists) wants. The same goes for H4E.
Interesting concept there, Joe. Let’s see. You ask
The answer there, apparently, is that there’s no second marriage. At least according to the literalist view.
You also say
Cruise back to this thread’s OP.
Ah, I get it now. “Repent” in your view is to continue to live in sin. Thanks for the update on the term.
You really don’t get it, do you? It’s been made manifestly clear in this thread what the point of the OP is and yet you still don’t get it. Truly amazing.
I agree, their personal life is none of our business and they’ve both stated several times that they will not share that personal (and possibly painful) information with the boards. Who can blame them for that? I’m all for letting it go.
I’m all for letting it go, also. First step: they need to quit condemning others. AFAICT here, nobody other than the recently rebanned one, has condemned them. The OP asked a question and then the not so very Christ-like responses came from them. Actually, that was no surprise. Well, the degree of invective in response was somewhat surprising. But it seems that at least two of the folks mentioned in the OP are starting to learn what kind of lens they’ve been applying to others and how that lens works when applied to them. The third one is now doing an award-winning tapdance.
Regarding their personal life as being none of anyone else’s business: the Catholics’ and the Mormons’ relationship with deity is none of their (the folks mentioned in the OP) business and neither is gobear’s personal life, nor the personal life of anyone else for that matter.
What you’ve seen here in action, in this thread, was the practical application of what happens when someone judges someone else–they get the same scrutiny. And, you know what? They don’t stand up to that scrutiny.
Oh, I’ll let it go in this thread. But, every single time any of those three mention any type of pronouncement on me or anyone else and attempt to use Scripture to justify it, I will first laugh and then I’ll will remind them that they are hypocrites when they do that.
On another thread on another board, His4Ever asked the opinion of Christians as to her divorces and remarriages. I had this to say there (and I think it almost directly echoes what gobear and to a lesser extent Joe Cool had to say here on the subject:
I went on to discuss this very thread and the accusations of hypocrisy against her here based on how she seemed to read the rules of Scripture differently when she was personally involved, largely to try to give her an understanding of what I saw as the question being raised.
It occurs to me that a fair summary of Jesus’s message as regards morality would be: “Live a moral life yourself. Try to help others; that’s a key part of morality. Don’t try to judge the morals of others, as you fear God’s judgment on your own. Remember that God loves you and is prepared to forgive your sins if you will just turn to Him and repent them, and strive to lead a moral life afterwards.”
IMHO, the people involved here are doing that, to the extent I know their situations.
Exactly, Poly. The three folks mentioned in the OP appeared here and were quite judgmental. Wrong, but judgmental. Now there’s something happening in the lives of a couple of them and, lo and behold, the tables have been turned. I suppose one could call it Karma.
Sure. Could you shut up about homosexuality being a sin? Sounds like a deal to me.
It isn’t for me - it’s for GLBT Christians, for one, but in a broader sense, it’s for all those people that have been rejected, scorned, belittled, broken and beaten by the juggernaut of Christianity. Have you done it, personally? Probably not. But the fact remains that Christian doctrine teaches that the one of the fundamental basics of our humanity - our sexual orientation - is a sin that, if unrepentented, will lead to eternal damnation. Thankfully there are lots and lots and lots of Christians who disagree, but the fact remains (as you so aptly pointed out) - it’s in the Bible, and therefore it is God’s word, and a lot of Christians believe that and act on it (anything from looking down one’s nose to actively discriminating against the gay community).
I do believe you’ve been called out in this very thread. Your responses, however, have been less than forthcoming, which is in sharp contrast to your very honest and forthright responses in threads regarding homosexuality.
Neigh, I say. And I daresay most of your opponents in this fight are heterosexual.
I cringe at the thought of you meeting a gay Christian.
Actually, gravity did, but thanks for the analogy anyway, Occam. You state your beliefs as if they are facts, when they are not - they are your beliefs. It would be helpful if you made that clear.
I was saying, rather, that it doesn’t matter to you what the American Psychological Association has researched, nor what I think, nor even what you think - the Bible says it’s a sin, so that’s that.
OK, Dopers, take note - Joe_Cool knows better than 35+ years of scientific study. :rolleyes: This isn’t “the latest psychological study,” this is years of research. If you can accept a little bit of science when it comes to Creationism, I find it interesting that you can’t accept a whole lot when it comes to homosexuality.
Cute - point me to the search page. Once again, not very forthcoming about completely relevant and related issues that address fairly basically the issue of homosexuality as a sin in today’s society - not “strawmen.”
And, again, we’re also just playing the part of the messenger for you, reminding you what your own book says. If you’re going to use it to justify “the sin of homosexuality,” it makes sense we can use the same text to point out other sins that you may or may not be aware of.
Actually, I can live with this - at least there’s some consistency between your “helpfully pointing out that the Bible says homosexual acts are a sin” and stating flatly that so is remarriage.
Please keep in mind, however, that “sin” is an emotionally charged word, and throwing it around is part of what people get their hackles up about. Whether you mean it or not, there is an implied condescention, condemnation and “holier-than-thou” attitude expressed with that word, so if you’re going to continue to use it (all for our own good, of course :rolleyes: ), you might want to keep this in mind.
And, for the record, I’m extremely happy to hear that His4ever left an abusive relationship and that, hopefully, has found love again. I could never see that as any kind of “sin” and could never believe that a truly loving god would think it was. Similarly, I’m glad that you and Jersey are happy and working towards a healthy, loving relationship - everyone deserves that. I just hope that any GLBT folk you know (especially any Christian ones) get the same respect from you.
Sure thing, unless there’s another debate with “what the Bible says about homosexuality” at its core. Remember that I have not gone around to every thread that has gay people posting on it telling them that they’re sinners. On this topic I have only responded to asked questions and come to the defense of those being attacked unfairly for stating what the Bible says.
Well, that’s certainly a noble pursuit. Except, of course, for the part where you attack me as a proxy for all those people who have discriminated against gays, which you seem to acknowledge is something I haven’t done personally. But other than that, good luck in your crusade. You have my support, up to the point where it contradicts my understanding of the Bible, i.e. church-sanctioned marriages for gays. If someday I get a revelation from God telling me that he does indeed approve of homosexual relationships, then you will have my most abject apology and my most fervent support. Until then, we will disagree on that point.
Yes we have. But without any evidence of the accusation being true. It’s up to the accuser to prove the accusation, not the accused to disprove it. This thread is based on a piece of hearsay that Maeglin incorrectly remembers (or heard from an inaccurate source); but even when he apologized for the misinformation, the train didn’t even slow down. Yeah, that’s a fair trial. :rolleyes:
Esprix, the circumstances leading up to our raising a child together are not public information. That is the difference between our situation and yours, for example. Here’s an idea: why don’t you search, for Jerseydiamond’s “Ask the girl who…” anywhere on the board. You won’t find them. Do you know why?
Because she didn’t post them. Because her personal history is nobody’s business except hers and mine. And that’s the way it’s going to stay unless she changes her mind. So if you don’t think I provided a proper defense to “prove my innocence” of adultery, too bad.
And none of them are attacking us based on facts - only with strawmen (“Well, since you’re a literalist…” etc) and hatred based on the username or the fact that I’m a conservative Christian who doesn’t agree with their interpretation of the Bible’s words on homosexuality.
Oh yeah, I’m already a-lightin’ them torches and a-sharpenin’ mah pitchfork. :rolleyes:
I accept a whole lot of science. That doesn’t mean I’m obligated to accept everything said in the name of science. And it doesn’t make psychology a valid science, either. There is some worthwhile learning in psychology, but the most part of it appears to be conjecture and wishful thinking dressed in the trappings of scientific fact. And, as I said before, it doesn’t matter all that much to me if it’s natural or not. Natural doesn’t mean good. Lying and violence also come naturally. As do thievery and disobedience. Sin, according to the Bible (ok, my understanding of the bible. That make you happy?), is our natural state - hence our need for salvation through Jesus. So even if you prove to me that homosexuality is natural, that doesn’t help the case.
I don’t know where you get the idea that I’m obligated to follow you into every argument that you want to start, and when you want it. But I don’t feel like rehashing the “OT vs NT why doesn’t this apply to you? and this? and this? and this? but this does? and this?” argument again. And I’m not going to. At least not today. And I wasn’t trying to be a jerk with the search link - only making a point. I’ve already gone over the Old Testament laws many times. It’s not a fight I’m ready to have again. If you search, you’ll find it. Search results as posts; user joe_cool; keywords moral, ceremonial, testament; forum Great Debates; dates a year ago and older. Maybe 6 months. Is that more helpful to you? I assumed you were aware of those specific discussions and knew how to find them. Sorry.
And it would be a great help, if you even put on the pretense of caring about your targets (you guys make His4ever look like Mother Theresa), or if the passages you quote at me were applicable, and the accusations you level against me were accurate. In other words, if you had half a clue what you were talking about.
Joe, you and will disagree on the question of homosexuality and sin; I know that being gay is who I am, and if the Bible declares my love to be wicked, then the Bible is in error.
But that does not mean that we must be enemies. My hope is that, through the jiu-jitsu of satyagraha (or agape if you prefer), I can change your minds. I will show you my wounded heart, a heart that has been broken through the self-righteouesness and cruelty of people who serve the letter, but not the spirit of the law. I John says, “He who says he loves God, yet hates his brother, is a liar and the truth is not in him,” and I feel that is true of many people who judge others cruelly in the name of a compassionate and merciful God. It is also true of others who demand perfection of all save themselves.
I will continue to disagree with you on some matters, but I’m trying to do so with love. I wish to love you and love JerseyDiamond. The Buddha taught that we must have compassion on all beings throughout the universe and not cease from striving with love until all beings have achieved enlightenment. In this season, when Christians believe that their Creator was made flesh in the supreme gift of love, doe it not behoove us to appeal to the better angels of our adversaries’ natures?
In all seriousness, gentlemen, now that we have established that Joe and Jersey are not the agents of Fred Phelps here ;), what about a thread, I think in the Pit to give room for invective, that deals with Jersey’s comment about gays being bitter – bringing to people who may not know the full extent of it the sorts of lies perpetrated by some of the leaders of the Religious Right, and the truth about them. That’s how I learned what I know about it – by reading screeds on the one hand and personal accounts on the other, and realizing who was telling the truth. Thus will ignorance truly be fought, and thus, hopefully, will hearts be changed.
I think I’ve mentioned before having gone into a bar one evening in 1998 for a drink before driving home, sitting down at a little triangular table, and then reading a few days later in the weekly newspaper here an account by a gay journalist who had known Matthew Shepherd in which he described talking with Matthew over drinks in a bar. That bar. That table. The stool I had sat on.
If you’ve ever felt the impact of what it’s like to walk in the shoes of another, you have a very mild suggestion of what that article did to me. All my life I’ve been fairly small and weak, and something of an outsider.
There but for the grace of God go I.
Joe, I have never disagreed with you about the words of Scripture – but occasionally I have on how they are to be interpreted and applied. I ask you and Jersey, in the name of that young and unjustly murdered man, to forgive the people who have savaged you in the past here – because they live with the knowledge that they could be next, and that a lot of what creates that negativity is people who not only quote what the Bible says but then decide that it’s necessary to “do something about them evil faggots destroying Amurrican values.” And for our Lord’s righteousness and mercy, they sow hatred. For the sort of love that looks on with compassion or the sort of love that warns of danger, they substitute demonization.
Is it any wonder to you that, with you standing on the Biblical issues you see as most important to emphasize and with no knowledge of your personal feelings, some of them saw you as following in the shoes of these pseudo-Christian hatemongers from what little you did say? And I know you now well enough to know how you would react to someone condemning you as it appeared to them that you did them.
And now that we have gone through all that, can you and Jersey, rejoicing in your new marriage and in the coming celebration of our Lord’s birth, see your way clear to truly forgive those who, wronged by many who call themselves Christian, mistook your message for more of their hate and reacted in hate themselves?
Please understand that when those “being attacked unfairly” are being refuted it’s because they are, using their holy text, telling people that what they consider to be one of the most innate, natural, crucial parts of their humanity - their sexual orientation - will, if unrepented, leave them suffering eternal torment. Don’t blame people for standing up for themselves and their beliefs - just like you do. I’d just as soon see you stay out of those kinds of threads for a while, but that’s up to you.
You keep us updated on that, now.
Well, then, my sincerest condolences on you and Jersey for the loss of your respective first spouses. And if that’s not the case, then I hope your covenant with Jesus Christ helps absolve you of your sins. Either way, good luck to you both.
True - I think everyone has granted you that. However, if, on a public message board, you express your beliefs (even if they are as “axiomatic” as the “sin of homosexuality” in the Bible), then don’t be surprised when you’re taken to task on it, and asked more about your beliefs. You’re welcome to use the privacy defense, of course, but don’t think it gives you any more credibility.
But you’re qualified to judge them because they are Christian.
I’m finding this hard to respond to, but I’ll chalk it up to your “learned opinion” and leave it at that.
{emphasis mine}
YES! YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES! At least for me, that little qualifier - “my understanding,” “my opinion,” or “my interpretation” - makes a WORLD of difference in how I see you.
You’re not, but again, if you post your opinions on a public message board, you may be called to expound, defend or clarify them, and by not doing so, you lose some credibility. I’m sure this isn’t news to you.
Nope - that’s why I asked the question. I’ll perhaps make use of that search function to get an idea of your thoughts, but, for me, the gist of that article is valid - Christianity has reinterpreted scripture over the past two centuries on certain topics, but not others, and the gay community ends up with the raw end of the deal.
Bah - His is no saint. In fact, you may not have gone into every thread and levelled eternal damnation against the GLBT community, but His has, and got quite an earful for it.
And yes, your vehement stance on your private life precludes anyone from definitively pointing out your hypocrisy - that’s between you and your god. I hope your interpretation of your holy book about him being merciful and loving is correct, or I may have to save you a seat next to me in the afterlife - at least, according to the Bible.
