His4Ever, JerseyDiamond and Joe_Cool are hypocrites.

The BBQ Pit
481

Sorry, didn’t see Poly’s wonderful response in preview.

After doing some thinking about this and taking a closer look at Joe and Jersey’s posts, I will certainly apologize for any vindictiveness portrayed by my own posts. Of course I will continue to passionately - sometimes vehemently - stand up for myself and my community when faced with belittlement, condemnation or bigotry wherever I see it. But, as much as I disagree with Joe and Jersey about Christianity, the Bible and their interpretation thereof, it seems they do treat people with kindness and fairness, so I do not wish them hate or hurt, but only love and luck. And although I agree with some of my more strident GLBT brothers and sisters that hate is hate, even when thinly veiled in “good intentions,” I’m not seeing a whole lot of it here. Yes, I am insulted that my sexual orientation is deemed “sinful” by some, but we are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs - what counts, at least on this plane of existence, is what is done to others, and despite their beliefs, I see Joe and Jersey trying to do right by others, even when those beliefs are contradictory to those by whom they are trying to do right. (Does that make sense?)

(I will note I have reserved commenting on His4ever, not necessarily because of any bigotry she might have, but rather her posting style and emphatic witnessing give me pause.)

Esprix

482

Sure thing. It’s right after the part that says heaping more sin on top of your existing sin makes your past sin better.

483

Joe Cool wrote:

Correction: stating what they interpret a translation of the Bible to say.

484

Live as you want but please see that while you and your churches are using your powers of numbers to control lawmakers and impose your beliefs on me I will remain pissed off. You may live as you want but I do not have the same right because the laws do not allow them. I cannot marry the person I love and be with her. I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn’t be pissed off with your beliefs when they do impact on me negatively every day of my life even though I am thousands of miles away from your land and am not a Christian.

Nobody has answered the question I have asked several times. What is the difference between your bible interpretations and subsequent political pressure over homosexuality and the bigotry and bible inspired political pressure that allowed slavery in the USA and apartheid in South Africa? The Bible is being used to excuse hate of homosexual people now as much as it was used in defence of lynchings not that long ago. Please explain why the story of Ham is now interpreted differently but Leviticus is not up for negotiation?

I hope the only difference is time and that you are going the way of the dinosaurs.

May your children be better people.

485

Thylacine wrote:

That’s what happens when people worship the Bible. With their mouths, they call God “Lord”, but they reserve their obedience for the book.

486

I agree with all of that.

Would you apply similar logic to a longstanding and committed homosexual couple who had made similar vows to one another (and, presumably, to God)? Would the pain and heartbreak and heaped damage caused by their breakup justify their staying together, from a “net sin” (if you will) standpoint?

(Note: I’m not attacking you at all. I just think there’s specific middle ground to be found here.)

Dr. J

487

Some poster (I think on this MB) once questioned “whether you think your grandchildren will be more or less embarassed about your attitude towards gays as you are about your grandparents attitudes towards blacks”. Interesting and thought provoking.

488

Ah, so you’re not going to answer it, hey, Joe? The past sin is obviously null and void. It’s the future ones I asked about.

489

Not sure I entirely understand the question. Do you mean from a Christian point of view, or a purely secular one, in which homosexuality is merely a different way of living?

From the Christian POV, I’d say no, the same logic doesn’t apply, because as far as I can tell, God doesn’t recognize a marriage between two men or two women.

I don’t see any indication there that any marriage vows between a homosexual couple would be valid in God’s eyes. This is the same point Monty is trying to make with regard to the divorce/remarriage question - that the subsequent marriages aren’t lawful and therefore don’t exist to be broken. If he had posed the question in a less jerkish way I’d have been more inclined to think about it and give a more in-depth answer, but for now, my answer is that that’s the way it feels to me. Since neither of us is planning to divorce or remarry, the question really doesn’t apply to me, and so I haven’t put much thought into it. After all, I’m not really looking for ways to use the Bible to bash people or start fights.

From the strictly secular POV, I’m really not qualified to answer, though I guess if God were taken out of the equation, it wouldn’t matter if you were gay or not, so it’s a moot question.

490

Since the sarcasm in my reply to you was too much for you to understand, I’ll translate it down to your level:

I haven’t ever said that, nor have I cited it from anywhere. So quit arguing strawmen. If you want to fight, let’s fight about what I did say. Surely you can find something in the opinions that I have posted that pisses you off, right?

491

God is out of my equation yet I still do not get legal rights for my union. How is this just?

492

See, Your equation isn’t really relevant. This is true for at least one of two reasons:

  1. God is, independently of whether you believe it or not. And according to his Word, a homosexual union is not valid, regardless of what your equation is, so your relationship can’t be sanctified under him. If you don’t like this, too bad. That’s how it is. But you’re welcome to find a church that doesn’t agree and have them marry you.

  2. The law says what it says. And in most states, the law says that your relationship cannot have legal marriage rights. Again, this is without regard to your personal equation. If you don’t like this one, write to your congressman. Vote. Etc. But until it gets changed, too bad - that’s how it is.

The problem is that not everything is relative, your desires notwithstanding. No matter what you would like your personal equation to say, your equation doesn’t rule, and things are the way they are. Period.

493

Oh, the old but God just is so he rools! argument. So if I tell you that my leader from the planet bumblefree is coming soon and wants everyone to wear purple you will be happy to wear purple?

Please try to understand, not everybody believes that your version* of God exists. It is not a given, if it was there would be no need for faith, we would all be able to see him and have him tick our time sheets.

Separate the Church and State and I will respect your views, until such time as you and yours relinquish your political power I will fight against your prescriptions in my life each step of the way.

You have no right to prescribe that I am a lesser human and that is what you do when you deny my rights to a union that is legally sanctioned and makes me happy. You also open my life up to abuse and bigotry and make life harder than it should be all because I happen to find myself attracted to people who share the same basic plumbing layout.
*by your version of course I mean the one you find in your reading of the Bible which is by no means the only Christian God that is worshipped, some of them I could grow quite fond of, never yours though.

494

Wow. Now you tell people what is and is not relevant.

I bow before your radiantly superior wisdom.

:rolleyes:

495

Most employers give insurance to couple who are not married

If you are purchasing a house, you can get it in both of your names.

If you were interested in having the last name of you SO, all you have to do is go to the courts and apply for a name change.

You can make your SO your beneficiary on your life insurance policy.

You can make a will that states that your SO is in charge of everything and is entitled to your belongings.

You can have a “unity” gathering to show your love for one another, and invite all the people you want there. (I guess something like a wedding but not under God, under your love for one another. If you don’t believe in God, then you don’t need a preist or a judge)

You can co-sign for your SO.

You can open a bank account with your SO.

If people say nasty things to you in the street or on a message board, you walk away or tell them to get lost.
You are not special. Straight people just as well as gays get mocked and picked on all the time.

I understand that you don’t believe in God. I am sad that you don’t, but that’s that.

You already know my views on the Bible and God. I will not push my view on you. I am not forcing anything on you.
My duty as a christian is to spread the good news. Once you know what I think on something and you say that you don’t buy it and that’s final, I did my part. I will not hound you.
The Bible clearly says that not everyone will believe.

If anyone asks a Bible question, and I feel that I can answer, I will.
That does not mean that I am trying to pound it into your head. I am answering a question.

There are a lot of things in life that we will not agree on, but I do want to to be happy.
I will never try to hurt you or make you sad. You are going to live you life the way you want and that is fine by me. Just don’t tell me what I have to do and I will not tell you what you have to do.
I cannot control the way our government handles things, but there are ways you can have legal rights together.

How is Joe_Cool saying that you are a “lesser human” by saying that you cannot get married under God?
He has not said that you shouldn’t have the rights that a married couple has. As a matter of fact, he has said the opposite. I think you should do a search.

496

Prove it. No proof? Aww. My beliefs are as valid as yours, me bucko, 'cause neither of us knows for sure, now, do we?

Yeah. So why are religious people fighting to keep the laws against gay marriage in place? Surely it couldn’t be for the same misguided reasons they fought against interracial marriage, like a bizarre interpretation of a religious text?

Remember this when your kids try and shut you up when you start rambling about gay people in your dotage, huh?

Our equation, the one that actually involves compassion, is gaining ground fast. Your opinions will soon be looked on with the same contempt reserved for the KKK and white supremacists. The equations change, society learns from its mistakes, and people who remain entrenched in their outdated, morally bankrupt perspectives will be left behind, relics of an earlier, more ignorant time.

The equations eventually balance.

497

If you did a search Jersey you may find that I am Australian with an American SO who will be coming here instead of me going there due to your federal laws. The bits and pieces that should be automatic but can be got manually are not my issue but it saddens me that you think that your list is one that makes stuff ok for gay folks living there. In your land being unable to marry under God means no entry because of the vast political power held by so-called Christians who fail to see that taking Caesar’s role is not for God or his followers. Believe what you want but relinquish the political power. Saying

is utter utter BS. You and yours do control the way the government handles this thing and you know it.

498

And I didn’t mean to quote the whole post obviously, sorry folks.

499

But not all. It is not universal mandate which is non-discriminatory in nature. It is finite. Unlike you and your lovely spousal choice which gets joint insurance by default via marriage.

Gee. All automatic rights which come via marriage, which we are denied.

So… each one of these things has a cost which you do not have to pay for seperately.

You changing your last name from Diamond to Cool is built into getting married.

Dependant on the state, there are default rights of inheritance based solely on being married.

We have to have special paperwork drawn up beyond wills to make sure that our wishes are protected after death. Families have successfully contested the wills of same sex partners and made sure that the spouse did not inherit.

Further, same sex partners are also kept from being able to visit their partners in intensive care because they aren’t family or married. This is not a rarity. It does happen, and yet MORE paperwork has to be written and filed to make sure that those wishes are fulfilled.

Then an advance directive has to be filed to make sure that in the event of being incapacitated that your partner will get to make health care decisions for you.

And what the FUCK does believing in God have anything to do with a ceremony involving a judge?

You and your husband are a charming piece of work. You deny that you are bigots, and then continue to spout such amazing tripe.

500

Nor does He recognize a marriage between one man and two women, which is the case when he divorces and remarries (with the usual exceptions). At least, that’s how they thought of it in the church I was raised in–God takes that whole “until Death do you part” thing seriously, and once you’ve done it once, that’s it.

I also don’t understand how the divorce/remarriage situation can be justified under the “two greatest commandments” idea, and the situation with a homosexual couple can’t.

And yes, I’m asking about the Christian POV.

I’d like to see some sort of cite for this. It has not been my experience at all.

Dr. J