Nicely said, jayjay. This godless humanist would add: …and we all deserve to be treated equally, and as individuals.
As an addition to my post…
You know I respect you tremendously and like you personally, Homebrew, and whatever power you care to worship knows that holier-than-thous make my teeth hurt, but I’ve always been uncomfortable with the notion that fighting fire with fire in these types of debates is a good tactic. Yes, people who hold other people to impossible standards of behavior while giving themselves philosophical elbow room are wrong to do that. But it doesn’t become right when we do it back. It’s wrong regardless of who does it.
Actually, I’m glad this thread was started. There’s at least one person on the other side of this fence who isn’t a cardboard cutout villain to me anymore. That’s always a good thing.
Look, I didn’t say divorce isn’t wrong, except maybe in the case of adultery. And I’d prefer not to even talk about homosexuality anymore. I don’t know what God will do about that situtation, I leave it with Him. Also, thanks for the sympathy.
My apologies in the manner I may have expressed myself on this particular subject. I haven’t changed my beliefs about it but I think enough has been said on that subject.
Yes, I’m divorced and it’s wrong. I can only ask forgiveness and go on and I believe He has forgiven me. I feel between a rock and a hard place here. Just because I’ve admitted to doing wrong I can’t just turn around and say well this is okay or that is okay in God’s eyes. Perhaps I should never say anything about anything in some people’s view.
In the future, if asked about something controvrsial, I’ll try to give my belief in a better manner of just decline to answer.
Except of course, for Republicans, who are all evil, right?
I just want to make sure I’ve got all the facts. :rolleyes:
Um, no, everyone. Including Republicans. Do you currently possess any facts? :rolleyes:
Facts can be checked.
So if it’s wrong to have been divorced from the guy who didn’t commit adultery, why’re you getting ready to marry someone else in violation of that black and white rulebook you beat us upside the head with?
Look, I don’t give a flying flip if you marry, if you divorce, or even if you’re a closet transvestite. What is at issue is your telling those of us who are not of your faith that we’re a bunch of damned and unforgiven sinners. I see you tell me that because I’m Mormon, and yet the only sin of mine you have any personal knowledge is that I worship God as a member of the LDS church. I see you tell gobear that he’s damned and unforgiven and yet the only sin of his you have any personal knowledge is that he loves someone of the same gender. I see you tell the Catholics that they’re damned and unforgiven and yet the only sin of theirs you have any personal knowledge is that they worship God as members of the Catholic church.
I read the Bible and came to the conclusion that my church’s teachings are not incompatible with it and therefore I worship God, as the Bible says I should. The Catholics have read the Bible and come to the conclusion that their church’s teachings are not incompatible with it and therefore they worship God, as the Bible says they should.
You, on the other hand, admit that you’re flouting the very biblical laws you shriek at us to follow, telling us that we’re the ones ignoring it. We’re not ignoring them. You are. You finally admit it.
So, back to the question raised in the OP (italicized, underlined, and even bolded, so maybe, just maybe, this time you’ll see the question and deign to give us an honest answer to it): Why are you stalking the Latter-day Saints, the Roman Catholics, and the Homosexuals around the Straight Dope Message Board and calling them damned and unforgiven sinners when (a) it’s not your place to make that decision, and (b) you admit you’re not even bothering to follow one of the supposedly most important commands in that black and white rulebook you demand everyone ELSE follow?
I’m not interested in any homilies. I’m not interested in any past experiences. I’m not interested in any cute connotations. Just give us all a simple answer to the question in the OP. That would be the one I just rephrased above.
I already knew you’re a liar. Now I know you’re a hypocrite. If it weren’t so sad, I’d laugh.
And Zoe: I already quoted The Noble Qur’an, Surah 2, verse 80 {“Or is it that you say of God what you know not?”} to H4E. Obviously, it did exactly zero good.
Just in case anyone else decides that my use of the “only sin” construction above: I obviously don’t think those are sins. I was using it as a literary device for H4E’s purt-near unlikely to happen edification.
Drat. “…my use of the “only sin” construction above means I think that stuff’s a sin…”
BTW: You’re not leaving it with Him. You’re making a volitional choice. Ponder on that for a moment.
cough, gobear, key paragraph in your link:
That would be “treating them as individuals,” and indeed, Thanksgiving was rather pleasant.[/hijack]
sigh
You didn’t get what I said AT ALL.
You had every right to leave your first husband. And I don’t believe divorce is a sin.
HOWEVER…if you are currently married, and you believe in Biblical literalism, you should remain CELIBATE.
And no, don’t you pull that, “I don’t want to talk about homosexuality” crap anymore. YOU start these things, babe. Not me.
You say you don’t want to talk about it? Fine. Then the next time there’s a thread about homosexuality-DON’T FUCKING POST THERE!!! If you do, we have EVERY right to call you on it!
:smack:
I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall…
Guin, dear, you are. I am also. Every time we try to educate Hypocrite4Ever {thanks, EchoKitty!}, we are beating our heads against that brick atop her shoulders.
Monty, I feel , er, “bad”, for lack of a better word, about flaming H4E. I don’t think she has the equipment to fight with you. She has little self-knowledge and an unsophiticated view of Biblical exegesis that I suspect has been spoonfed to her by a cult-like fundie church.
OTOH, Joe_cool and his bride ( and bout, does THAT sound like a horror movie title!) are fair game. They can hold their own in a fight, and more importantly, they’re not confused or uneducated like H4E–they’re just plain mean.
gobear: Yeah, isn’t it amusing in a sad way that this thread, more than any other, is the one in which she has actually even attempted to think for herself? And look at the disaster that is.
Oh, Monty. Everybody else was ready to sing kum-bay-ah and you weigh in with your lengthy post above.
What exactly would be a satisfactory answer to these questions, as you’ve phrased them, that H4E has not already said? What are you hoping for - H4E to break down in tears? She’s practically already done that. Your phrasing sounds like bad courtroom drama. Have you stopped beating your wife? Why or why not? Just answer the question, please.
And to those who seem to be seriously advocating that she leave Husband #3 and return to Abusive Husband #1, sorry, you’re nuts. Ditto on remaining married to Husband #3 but committing to lifelong celibacy. (This is, for lots of religions, grounds for divorce, of course.) Show me where in the Bible this course of action is recommended.
Lib used to talk about “heavy burdens”. This sounds like one of those. Would you do such a thing yourself, in H4E’s position?
masonite: Perhaps something along the lines of:
And I really don’t give a flying flip if she’s dry-eyed or drenched in tears if she does it. What I would dearly love to see is her admission that it’s not her religion that tells her those of us she hates are damned, it’s just her hate that tells her that.
Not likely to happen, is it?
In case you haven’t figured it out yet, the issue’s not even the upcoming nuptials: it’s the hidebound literal interpretation of the scriptures she’s been inflicting on others but when it comes to her life, BAM, it’s not so cut and dry, hey.
Good lord. I just misspelled “Mormon.”
Y’know masonite, I do feel for H4E. I think it sucks what she has gone through, and I would never suggest she go back to an abusive husband. What she should do is acknowledge that the harsh laws she uses to judge me are unfair, rather than claiming they don’t apply to her.
Compare the reaction of gobear to her tears with the hatefull reaction Joe_Cool and Jersey Diamond have had to the tales of hate and discrimination faced by homosexuals.
Yes. You’ve made that point. I hope H4E remembers that it’s very easy to talk about the commandments of the Bible that she herself finds natural and easy to follow. Unless and until she pipes up with Leviticus yet again, could you cut her some slack? And then when she does, you can talk about marriage and divorce and beat her over the head with it. Seems fair.
I’ve often wondered to whom the homosexuality prohibitions are addressed. It’s not something that really needs to be prohibited for most people; they’re going to avoid it anyway because they prefer the opposite sex. “Thou shalt not suck cock”, for most straight men, might as well be “Thou shalt not eat catshit.” Well, duh. This is why it’s a little pointless for fundies to quote the verses. They’re down solid with the commandments they were going to follow anyway, even if they weren’t commanded.
But that’s another kettle of worms.