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Factual Questions
1

Hi,

I feel I should start with some sort of a disclaimer seeing as how the topic can be quite sensitive. I am not looking for advice on engaging in any illegal activity (although I welcome advice on how to avoid doing so accidentally) related to clandestine chemistry. I am just trying to learn things in my spare time on my own. Although I realize this might not be the wisest approach, I simply do not have the time or energy to be anything other than a part-time dilettante. I already know how much cooler it would be to enroll in a few university courses in chemistry and take advantage of the lab facilities there (although I would imagine that’s probably even harder than doing it at home), my question is firmly not about that either.

Basically, a few days ago I purchased a barely used Gilbert’s Chemistry set from 1948 at a local flea market. It seemed like a find, and I’ve heard things like that existed but I’ve certainly never seen one. The booklets read like they are from another world - a world with a lot less litigation and a lot more fun, the booklets alone make the purchase worthwhile. However, the set made me wonder to what extent is it possible to set up a small chemistry lab in one’s home (as described by the booklets, were you to buy more equipment from Gilbert’s… in 1948).

a) Labware is not the cheapest thing in the world. Does anybody sell small sets of beakers, cylinders, flasks, tubes, burners, distillation tools, etc. aimed at a hobbyist (but preferrably not aimed at children, since I do not want to be entirely bound by somebody else’s idea of perfect safety) as kits of sorts?

b) What chemicals can be purchased by an individual? I’ve checked a few chemical supply house websites and they are not entirely clear since I would imagine this subject does not come up all that often. The first chemical that popped into my head was potassium permanganate since I remember playing with it as a kid in Russia (it was sold in pharmacies as powder to be diluted into an antiseptic). Most chemical supply places carry it although it’s sold in units from 500g to 25kg and I do not need nor want that much of a strong oxidizer anywhere in or even near my home. It’s also usually labeled as “hazmat” (for obvious reasons) and “regulated” (I don’t even know what this means and in what context). Can I, and if so where, as an individual acquire, say, 25g of potassium permanganate? If some sort of a license or permit is required, where do I start to look to decide if it’s feasible to do as an individual?

c) The Gilbert’s chemistry set contains some sort of a strontium compound (white crystalline), I don’t remember (the kit is at home) but it’s probably strontium chloride or strontium nitrate. Now, the probability that any of the Sr is <small>90</small>Sr is probably 0, and if it was it would be 75% decayed by now anyway, but just in case I feel compelled to ask - the kit is not irradiating my room as we speak is it? I’m safe unless I do something stupid (like eat it or inhale it) right? I mean part of the reason I’m asking is that the booklet used phrases like "The precise cause of the common cold is a mystery, but … " so if 1948 they were unaware of the hundreds of various rhinoviruses that cause the cold, well, what else were they unaware of? I know <small>90</small>Sr is a byproduct of fission but where, how and how much of it I don’t know, so it’s easier to ask.

d) Is it possible to get an inexpensive but still usable small table-top centrifuge? I know small ones exist, but frankly I don’t know all that much about centrifuges and especially not about choosing one. Since I don’t have a specific purpose in mind - other than the generic “separating things by spinning them”, this might be a pointless question.

e) This one isn’t really a chemistry question, but goes along. I remember in high school biology we had a giant thing of pure agar for culture work and as a medium for some sort of a DNA sequencing experiment (that one was fun). Is it possible to get small quantities of agar? What about restriction enzymes? In fact, is it possible, and if so, how expensive, to get everything I need to sequence bacteria DNA? I honestly don’t remember all of the equipment used, but some sort of film, camera, electrolysis bath, agar, pipettes, centrifuge, etc. were involved. Where can I read up on this that does not require graduate level knowledge of biochemistry? It would be a really fun thing to do on a sunday afternoon.
Phew, sorry for the long post, but when I start thinking about something, I tend to get carried away.

Thank you in advance,

Groman

2

Try Hobbytown USA and Edmund Scientific.

Chemicals in the original Gilbert set are now quite limited as to being readily available. IIRC the sets were outlawed due to their hazardous nature and the fear of children being harmed.

3

What with 9/11 and meth labs sprouting up everywhere, it’s getting harder to find many chemicals. Take a look at the hoops you need to go through to order from at this pyrotechnic chemicals site.
The Chemistry Store sells an assortment of reagents less likely to go boom, with less hassle.
Edmund Scientifics will sell you beakers and such, but the days when you could bike down to the local hobby store and buy distillation columns and condensers are long over.

4

Some items may be available at better teacher supply stores- I remember seeing agar kits and various petri dishes and beaker type things there.

5

One of the reactions I commonly perform (though not as much now as what I’m doing has changed) uses 40% aq. methylamine solution. (Pure methylamine is a gas.) Anyway, I’m told that it takes like an extra week to order the stuff because it’s on a DEA list because methylamine really shortcuts the synthesis of methamphetamine. Considering you can make the stuff in a one-step synthesis with the right chemicals, I’m not surprised. Though I do have to wonder about stereochemical control.

6

Try American Science & Surplus for the glassware and other equipment. The selection varies monthly, but it’s a good place to start for the basics.

7

Get in good graces with a high school chemistry teacher. I think there are a couple on this board. Not only can they tell you what is available where and for how much, they can help guide you away from some of the more dangerous stuff (like how NOT to make a brown cloud of nitrous something or other).

Also, IIRC, college bookstores carry a small assortment of lab glassware for chem/biology labs. It probably isn’t comprehensive or cheap, but it’s a place to start.

8

Okay, I’ve always had someone else do my purchasing for me, but have you even tried yet to get an account with Sigma-Aldrich?

Also, I think that most biotech companies will ship to anyone.

http://www.qiagen.com

Except for specifically regulated and controlled chemicals, I don’t see why they won’t ship to private people, but my general impression from a lab is that you won’t be able to do almost anything cool without laying down at least $1,000 or so to start. What exactly were you hoping to do?

9

The current issue of Make magazine, vol. 07, has a cover blurb “Hack Your Plants” and includes an article on extracting DNA. As near as I can tell from skimming it, they don’t do anything with the DNA, but it’s worth looking at in the bookstore. The article is on their Web site, http://makezine.com, but you need to be a subscriber to see it. A quick search of the blog archives found me http://www.dnahack.com/index.html, which might help even more.

There are also links to chemistry stuff.

10

I really sympathize with you, groman, because in this day and age, nothing is simple any more.

When I was in HS back in the 40s, my hobby was chemistry, and I had quite an extensive lab in my cellar. I think the statute of limitations has run out, so I can now admit that I stole a lot of glassware, chemicals and reagents from the HS chem lab.z :smiley:

Out of my meager allowance, I also purchased a lot from supply houses. I now shudder to think of some of the stuff I had, but I survived somehow. Back then you could even order stuff like white phosphorus (in water) and pure sodium (in kerosene, I think…it would ignite if it came in contact with water).

I found a couple of things I wanted that required an explosives license. Oddly, New York State did not have any minimum age for obtaining one, so I applied an got one! Later I helped out a crazy old dynamiter blow rocks in a stone quarry, as I had the license.

I learned enough to pass the final HS chemistry exam without ever taking the course.

I also look back in horror at the explosives I made, many of which are ridiculously easy. I even made nitroglycerine, also quite easy, but that was the only time I chickened out, and just poured it into a local brook, afraid to detonate it. Our neighbors got used to frequent explosions.

As had no hood in my little lab, I am astonished that am still alive considering some of the toxic fumes I inhaled. It also amuses me that today, if a kid is found with mercury, they usually shut down the entire school and decontaminate everybody. I used to keep a vial of the stuff with me, roll it around in my hands, and of course , coat quarters and dimes with it to make them nice and shiny. I must have had an total immunity to chemicals. My hands were also stained weird colors from microscopy slide stains.

Imagine doing that today?

Anyhow, good luck, it is a fascinating subject and a hobby that will keep you busy for years. Just don’t emulate me, take proper precautions, wear rubber gloves, eye protection and a mask when necessary.

Have fun!

11

A P.S. to my ramblng treatise on unerground chemistry. :smiley:

If you determine that getting the chemicals you want is just too much of a hassle, you might look into what is now my hobby, microscopy. The new digital microscopes are amazing, you can see the subjects full size live on your monitor, and take pics of them under any magnification.

The few stains required are not controlled, and besides making your own slides, you can buy prepared ones.

12

Thank you very much guys, the few chemical houses listed do seem to ship to individuals, but sometimes an affidavit of liability waiver of some sort is required. A lot of things are completely controlled or are on watch lists however which just makes me angry. Security is an art where you have to be right every time. Limiting supply of chemicals or lab equipment is not going to stop anybody, nor will it make it all that more difficult, from making bombs, meth, or what-have-you.

13

An excellent book from my childhood was the Golden Book of Chemistry.
A Golden Book, and it’s good? Yes. It gave you very complete ideas on how to build a chemistry lab from scratch, using household items, and getting chemicals from easily available sources. It’s the same book the “atomic boy scout” used (although it certainly didn’t suggest doing anything atomic). From this book I learned how to make two different plastics, soap, and plenty of basic facts on chemistry.

the bad news – some of this stuff isn’t available any more. Nobody’s going to sell you carbon tetrachloride. Most batteries aren’t the manganese dioxide + carbon rod type anymore, and good luck finding muriatic acid at your supermarket. When I was a kid they sold hobby chemicals at the local hardware store – sodium ferrocyanide and ferric amonium sulfate and sulfur and sodium silicate solution and borax and some weird things like lignite (which was just wood) and cochineal (crushed South American Bugs) and Canadian Balsam (tree sap). I haven’t seen that stuff in ages.
You ought to be able to buy chemicals through the big suupliers – Alfa and Aldrich and Sigma, and smaller local companies. You ought to be able to buy lab supplies through Fisher and other companies. Edmunds has gone mainly into optics these days, but I think they still run a side line of scientific toys that might sell things you’re looking for.
And you can still get a lot of chemicals at the grocery and hardware stores, like borax.

14

Actually, I’ll disagree with this statement quite vigorously. The supply, price, and use of methamphetamine have all been heavily influenced by attempts to control the chemical precursors of methamphetamine. I think that controlling access to pseudoephedrine, etc. has proven a remarkably and effective means of combatting meth use that doesn’t involve long jail sentences or patrolling the border with Blackhawk helicopters.

Please watch this Frontline documentary for more information:

As it stands, you can probably get 99.5% of the Sigma catalog with just a signed waiver; is that so far to go for your hobby if you’re getting chemicals with NFPA hax-mat ratings in the 3’s and 4’s?

Please tell me if you ultimately can successfully order from Sigma.

15

I beg to differ. As I recall, The Golden Book of Chemistry was inoffensive pap – a classic example of what is wrong with chemistry books for children. The book you want is The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments (c) 1960, which is often available on eBay.

It began a childhood chemistry career let me score 5/5 on the Chemistry AP, skip two years of undergrad chemistry without ever taking a real chemistry course, and eventually become a molecular biologist (before I moved to medicine). It was just a start, of course, but a darn fine one. I read all the chem books I could get my hands on, but only the Merck Index rivaled its influence on me.

Even in my graduate education, I think that only Stryer’s Biochemistry (with Lehninger’s as an adjunct) and Watson’s Molecular Biology of the Cell had a similar effect. I’ve had the pleasure of many fine texts in my life, but that handful of formative texts stands out.