homophobia - still alive and well?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

First of all, let me say that my original OP was not meant to be a personal attack on someone. I went to look up the thread in which I found it and saw that actually Satan was the poster who had used it. I didn’t even remember it was you. My OP was caused about me hearing some highschoolers making some anti-gay comments (of the genre “why do those two guys have to hold hands in public? I’ve got nothing against fags, but they should keep it in their own home.”) while in line at in-n-out Burger.

Satan, I would argue that just because something is funny doesn’t mean there isn’t an (unconscious) prejudice behind it.

Here’s an example: Recently I watched the movie Goldfinger. In it, James Bond (Sean Connery) is getting a massage from a “Bond Girl”. When a colleague shows up, he slaps her on the rump, and says “get out of here honey, man talk.” I laughed, I thought it was funny. Does that mean it isn’t sexist? No. Au contraire, it’s an indicator of the sexist attitudes that were prevalent in those days (and still nowadays) and probably were considered normal by the makers of the movie.

You say “faggot is funny, nigger isn’t.” The reason nigger isn’t funny is because racism is widely discredited. The reason faggot was widely used in your high school, and why homosexual slurs are still laughed at today, is because homophobia is still a much more entrenched part of society than racism. At least, that’s my explanation.

You mention a couple of other examples above, but there is a difference between you saying to a friend “you’re such a fag!” and calling someone (about whom you know nothing except their gender) “faggot”. I make inappropriate jokes sometimes, but it all depends on the audience. e.g. sometimes I make sexist jokes just to irritate some of my feminist friends because I think it’s funny when they get riled up. But what does that say about me? It says that to me sexism is not as serious an issue as other issues are, perhaps because I’m a man and also probably partly due to my upbringing and the environment in which I grew up. I like to call myself a feminist, but I’m probably not as committed a feminist as some others might be.

Otto, why don’t you get out of the lawn chair and give us poor heteros the straight dope? I for one could use the guidance.

[Satan]

**First of all, let me say that my original OP was not meant to be a personal attack on someone.

**

I didn’t take it as one. However…

**I went to look up the thread in which I found it and saw that actually Satan was the poster who had used it. I didn’t even remember it was you.

**

Well, I did. So, while I never thought you were singling me out, forgive me if I took the OP a bit personally in spite of this. Nothing personal, mind you…

**My OP was caused about me hearing some highschoolers making some anti-gay comments (of the genre “why do those two guys have to hold hands in public? I’ve got nothing against fags, but they should keep it in their own home.”) while in line at in-n-out Burger.

**

I find there’s a huge difference between what you overheard and every post I’ve ever made that references homosexuality and homosexual acts, don’t you?

Context, my man. CONTEXT!

**Satan, I would argue that just because something is funny doesn’t mean there isn’t an (unconscious) prejudice behind it.

**

So you are reading my mind then? I suggest you not try and do that. David B, a moderator in this forum, has taken on people who claim to have psychic powers quite regularly, and I would be wary about tempting his wrath.

**Here’s an example: Recently I watched the movie Goldfinger. In it, James Bond (Sean Connery) is getting a massage from a “Bond Girl”. When a colleague shows up, he slaps her on the rump, and says “get out of here honey, man talk.” I laughed, I thought it was funny. Does that mean it isn’t sexist? No. Au contraire, it’s an indicator of the sexist attitudes that were prevalent in those days (and still nowadays) and probably were considered normal by the makers of the movie.

**

I can do you better. I go to a local thing here called A/V Geeks, which is a guy who presents filmstrips and 8mm movies on everything from hygiene to food poisoning - educational flicks you watched in school and related stuff.

One flick was called Santa meets Punch & Judy. I got a video tape of it and showed it to Drain Bead, and she cn back me up on this. The short was patently offensive on so many levels…

The female puppet says no, she did not want to kiss the male puppet, and the male responded by whacking her in the head with a two by four and simulating a sexual position with her against her will. Then, two puppets in blackface come out and play around. MS3K screams from the crowd are common at these things, and the person who yelled out increduously, “This is why my parents are so fucked up” hit the nail on the head.

We laughed all right. But yeah, we also were horrified.

**You say “faggot is funny, nigger isn’t.”

**

Um… No. I said that I don’t use that word, but then I showed ways that I do use it which I don’t find offensive.

And the main point of my post was that words are just words. It’s thoughts that count, and since you can’t read minds, actions also speak a lot louder than words.

As much as I hate bigotry, I also find the guilt of the left to be equally as nauseating. To me, it’s all about All In The Family - I don’t want to be Archie, but I don’t want to be Meathead either!

Oh, but I suppose that I am stereotyping again, huh…

All I can say is that if a homosexual or lesbian has ever had a problem with something I said, I wish they would come forward and tell me. As much as I don’t give a fuck what people think for the most part, I do want how I really am to get across, and sometimes that’s not easy on a message board.

**You mention a couple of other examples above, but there is a difference between you saying to a friend “you’re such a fag!” and calling someone (about whom you know nothing except their gender) “faggot”.

**

I ask you to please point out where I did anything of the sort?

**I make inappropriate jokes sometimes, but it all depends on the audience. e.g. sometimes I make sexist jokes just to irritate some of my feminist friends because I think it’s funny when they get riled up. But what does that say about me?

**

To me it says you have a fucking sense of humor. Even though I was not around any feminist types, I loved joking around with Drain Bead when the basketball game we went to ha one of the female refs. I would applaud whenever she made a call, “Good call, honey!” It was funny, and Drainy appreciated the reference.

Otto, why don’t you get out of the lawn chair and give us poor heteros the straight dope? I for one could use the guidance.

My guess is that if anything was said here (this board, not just this thread) that offended Otto, Esprix, Neuro-Trash Girl or any other homosexual Dopers, they would not be shy to bring it to our attention.

In fact, let me say the best cripple jokes I ever heard came from a guy in a wheelchair…

---

Yer pal,
Satan

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[SingleDad]

Otto:

No, we’re trying to determine what’s offensive in general.

As a straight person (and a man, and a white, and an atheist, and a democrat, and a socialist), yes, I can determine at least some of the limits on how I refer to people in other groups. No, I don’t want to offend, but I’m not going to mutilate the language to refer to someone. Language and humor are forms of communication. They belong to no one group, but to us all. If they’re not common, they’re not effective, by definition.

What’s the acceptable limit on humor and language? That’s a matter of negotiation among intelligent people. It’s certainly true that patently offensive and derogatory terms and jokes have no place in the sophisticated person’s expression. On the other hand, trying to mangle the language or suppress all humor is clearly unreasonable.

If you want to contribute to this negotiation, please do so.

CuBorab:

I am neither lazy nor rude. I have spent a good deal of effort to learn the English language and use it competently. It’s a language, and it belongs to us all; you don’t get to personally define any part of it. I’m not going to spend a month reading your personal lexicon just to be able to hold a conversation with you.

Inventing new terminology to avoid the objective denotation of a descriptive term is an exercise in futility. Look at the continuous redefinition of terms for the appliance we use to deposit our feces. Each successive euphemism aquires the literal meaning and then requires a new euphemism.

In this case “childless” is a neutrally objective term that literally means “without children”. If you hold the objective denotation of that term offensive, then tough luck; it’s objectively true. You want me to change my language so that I explicitly praise that state? Now that’s rude. If I want to praise it, I will. If I want to deprecate it, I will too. If I want to describe it, I will use a descriptive term: The one defined by the language. The term is neutral; the “implied deprecation” is not linguistic, it’s cultural.

You might just as well ask me to use “hero (or heroine) of the human race in its struggle for zero population growth” to describe any childless person. If you get to define the language, then why not go whole hog? In fact, I object to the terms “lazy” and “rude”. I demand that you use the non-pejorative terms “differently energetic” and “exhibiting alternative socialization.”

[Esprix]

You’re all a bunch of bigots!

I’m going to have to go with Satan on this - it’s all in the intent. For example, this past weekend Dr. Boyfriend and I were at the Millenium March on Washington, and we got to go to the Equality Rocks concert (Melissa Ethridge is the bomb!). Anywho, we were walking down from the nosebleed section to get something to eat, and the steps were pretty steep, and Dr. Boyfriend’s like flouncing his arms as he steps lightly down the steps - from behind, he looked like a honkin’ fairy. “Yeah, that makes you look butch, you faggot!” sez I. (“It’s for balance!” yelled a spectator.) Obviously, he knew what I meant - I was poking fun at our own stereotypes (and the weekend was all about not making excuses for who we are).

Now, heading into the concert was, you guessed it, Fred Phelps and his kin, waving placards like “God Hates Fags” and “Matthew Sheppard is in Hell” and the like. Needless to say, him calling us faggots was not well-received (never mind the fact that he’s a blithering idiot).

And as far as the phrase “that’s so gay” goes, I don’t care for it, because there is an unspoken statement there, intended or not (really conscious or not) that gay=wrong. People who know I’m gay usually say it out of habit, then shoot me a nervous look when they realize they said it, but if I know them, then I usually just roll my eyes at them and accept the fact that they didn’t mean it “that way.” In mixed company, where I’m not recognized as being gay, I rarely say anything, not because I think it’s ok for them to use the phrase, but because coming out is a lifelong choice, and it is not my responsibility to come out to every single person I meet, so usually it’s just not wanting to get into it. (As my friend Steven once said, “I don’t have time to be your personal educational experience.”)

So, bottom line is, I know “gay” is used as an insult (I don’t think “faggot” is acceptable under any conditions unless you know the person), but I don’t like it and I don’t care for it, no.

Does that help?

Esprix

[Otto]

My guess is that if anything was said here (this board, not just this thread) that offended Otto, Esprix, Neuro-Trash Girl or any other homosexual Dopers, they would not be shy to bring it to our attention.

See, there you go making assumptions again…

My take on this is: if you make a “bigoted” comment because you believe the class of person is inferior to your own, then you’re a bigot. If you make such a comment and you don’t believe it, but you’re using others’ belief, then maybe you’re not a bigot but you’re an “enabler” for lack of a better term. If you make the comment and you don’t believe it and it’s not to take advantage of others’ bigotry, then it’s good-natured teasing all in good fun. If, however, someone objects to it, even if you had no intention of using the language in an offensive or harmful way, the proper response is to apologize and in that person’s presence refrain from doing it again. It is not a proper response to become defensive, mutter about “PC” or the “language police,” and it is absolutely improper to say anything that could remotely be interpreted as “can’t you take a joke?” I’m not talking here from a free speech perspective. You have IMHO an absolute right to say what you want about anyone or anything. I’m talking about manners.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=7224

Satan, I wasn’t too careful in my choice of words.

AW: You say “faggot is funny, nigger isn’t.”
Satan:Um… No. I said that I don’t use that word, but then I showed ways that I do use it which I don’t find offensive.

You’re correct. I was referring to these comments by you:
To make a long story short (too late!), calling someone gay or a fag is FUNNY.
…
"Would you think of slamming someone by saying “you must be one of those dumb watermelon-eating darkies?” I don’t see the humor in that in particular.

and also

AW: You mention a couple of other examples above, but there is a difference between you saying to a friend “you’re such a fag!” and calling someone (about whom you know nothing except their gender) “faggot”.
Satan: I ask you to please point out where I did anything of the sort?

Here’s what I was referring to:
Satan:But I believe that when (I think) SqrlCub started a thread saying he was bummmed out and wanted some words of encouragement, and I responded by saying, “You’re okay… For a FAG!” both he and everyone else in the thread laughed.
That’s an example of you using the word “fag” on a friend, or at least someone who knows you well from the SDMB.
But the comment that was one of the things that prompted my OP, something about “your addiction to male prostitutes”, was addressed by you to someone unknown to you, as far as I can tell.

I still maintain that something can be offensive (to some people) and still be funny. I think you’re drawing a dichotomy there, it’s either funny or offensive. I think it can be both.

I found a perfect example in this thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=7224

When I read it, I thought it was very funny. But if you look at it carefully, you will notice that there are several gay references, but no racist references. In fact, in all the threads I’ve read on the SDMB, I can’t remember ever reading racist references used in bantering amongst friends (and very rarely even hurled as insults.) I doubt that you (Satan) could come up with an example on the SDMB where you used a racial epithet because it was funny.

That was the whole point of my OP, that homosexual humour is allowed in today’s society because of the still existing bias towards gays, whereas racism has been pretty thoroughly discredited. In high schools where I live (Southern California), my experience has been that gay insults are used much more commonly (amongst friends joking around) than racial ones, even though the population here is very diverse. Of couse, I’m no longer in high school, so I could be all wet, but I know some high school students.

Of course, I’ll agree with Esprix and Otto that the intent is everything, and I’m not accusing you, Satan, of homophobia. My main question is this: why are gay insults acceptable and not racist ones?

[flup]

I am VERY big on gay rights. It horrifies that a group is still as discriminated against and scapegoated in America in the year 2000. Homosexuality is not a category, it is an activity. I view it like this: I have never cared for soccer, but I have several friends who love it. Their love for soccer has never become a conflict of our friendship. Why the hell should it? They choose to play soccer, I do not. The only way we would ever have any sort of conflict would be if they tried to get me to play. I just don’t want to.
Substitute “sex with men” for “soccer” in the above passage, and you will see my point. YET, here in the Bible Belt, It’s a totally different story. I’m finding myself more and more pro-christianity/anti-christian. I love God, I believe in what the church teaches (mostly), and that, in theory, the church is a very good thing. But I can’t stand my fellow Christians. Not all of them, but all these reborn people who justify their actions with “I’m a Christian!” So’s 95% of america–doesn’t make you special.
I’m tired of this “God hates fags” stuff I’m seeing more and more of. I don’t like to preach, but I want to clear something up here: “God hates” is an oxymoron. Hate is the antithesis of everything God stands for. THE BIBLE does not say God hates anywhere, nor does it say “it’s OK for you to hate if…” anywhere. God created all people, gay or straight.
“Homosexuality is wrong. It’s in the BIBLE!”
Funny how the Bible can justify about anything. This book which says we’re supposed to love has been responsible for more wars, fights, suffering, etc because everyone’s Bible makes an excuse for SOMETHING, and no two of these are the same.
I’d like to end on this note:
fact-All homosexuals were created by God.
fact-The Bible was created by men.

[Esprix]

Go flup!

Arnold, I see what you’re driving at - kids use “gay” more often than “nigger;” TV pokes fun at non-masculine men more often than stereotypically-behaving blacks; on the SDMB we’d call someone a “butt-pirate” before we called them a “nigger-lover.”

This is why gay rights are the civil rights issue of the 21st century - women came first, then blacks, now us. Sexism and racism certainly aren’t gone by any stretch of the imagination, but the prevalence of homophobia is still much more evident, particularly because this particular rights battle is currently so much in the forefront.

It’s nice to see, though, that strides have been made, even though we have much more to do. For example, I’d say the positive gay characters on television outweigh the stereotypical ones, whereas there was a time there were no gay characters whatsoever on television.

It’ll come, but it’ll probably take a couple of generations.

Esprix

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

Esprix,

You owe a BIG apology.

How dare you compare Rev Phelps to a blithering idiot.

Blithering idiots everywhere should feel insulted.

[beakerxf]

**
Esprix,

You owe a BIG apology.

How dare you compare Rev Phelps to a blithering idiot.

Blithering idiots everywhere should feel insulted.
**

I know I was offended.

[Beaker goes back to blithering at work]

[Cervaise]

Not that I think I have anything particularly profound to add to this, but I’ve gotta weigh in.

First:

SingleDad: In this case “childless” is a neutrally objective term that literally means “without children”. If you hold the objective denotation of that term offensive, then tough luck; it’s objectively true. You want me to change my language so that I explicitly praise that state? Now that’s rude. If I want to praise it, I will. If I want to deprecate it, I will too. If I want to describe it, I will use a descriptive term: The one defined by the language. The term is neutral; the “implied deprecation” is not linguistic, it’s cultural.

That’s kind of a PC Torpedo in a nutshell. Nice work.

Also: All the discussion of whether or not derogatory epithets can be funny makes me think of hanging out with my pals. I’m male, I look like a light Mediterranean white guy, though ethnically I’m a serious mutt: Chicano, Cherokee, Norwegian, blah blah blah. I’m also way inclusive in my social circle; people are people. Somebody asked me once if I had any black friends; I had to answer honestly, “I don’t know,” until I thought about it for a second. I imagine I’d have the same reaction if somebody asked me about gay/lesbian/other.

My friends know me well enough, and trust my intentions, that I can make fairly off-color remarks and know they’ll be taken with the intended spirit.

For example: One of my friends was telling me about the guy he had developed a crush on. I asked for a description; he provided it. Halfway through, I interrupted, and said with a slight sneer, “So basically he’s a farm boy who likes show tunes?” Big laugh on the other side, followed by, “Basically, yes.”

For another example: I’m with another friend, a big dark-skinned Puerto Rican. We get on a bus together. The seats are narrow and uncomfortable. We bellyache about it for a minute, and then I say, “Just another way they keep darkie down.” He looked at me in shock, and then I thought he was going to wet his pants, he laughed so hard. And “keep darkie down” is a sure-fire random joke in our conversation now.

But that being said: There is NO WAY I would say either of those things to someone I didn’t know personally, and who didn’t know me. If I did say something like that to a stranger, I would rightfully expect to get punched in the throat. (Or, perhaps, strangled with a boa. Ahem.)

For me, it really is all about intent. It is possible to be funny in some questionable areas. (There are some exceptions. George Carlin’s rant notwithstanding, I don’t think rape is ever funny.) But if you’re going to go there, you have to be careful about your audience.

[flup]

I like the direction of this conversation. I agree with George Carlin; everything can be funny. This is not to say everything IS funny, I happen to think rape is far more hideous than even murder, but there are contexts in which rape can be funny (Porky raping Elmer, [my own creation] Big Bird raping Darth Vader). I’ll even go so far as to say that, in and of themselves, racial/group slurs are funny, when used innocently. Logically, it is when they are used to offend that they are offensive. (There are exceptions-- evolution of languagehas really made it so that there is no way for me to innocently use “nigger” so I do not.) I have a number of good-humored black friends that i call Darkie; I in turn are Cracker. Funny! Friendly! I have several wop friends, and i am their “Mc -Bitch” (also I’m a guy–weird). Fine. I don’t think I’ve ever met a Heb I didn’t like (Kike is another plain old taboo) nor a kraut. And I am a…uh…what do people call Catholics? Hmmm… Anyway, I know several queerbos I love dearly and they remind me constantly that, as an “Eggpacker” I’m really no better off than a fudge packer.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

(flup, your wouldn’t be related to a certain Ian Chard, would you? http://www.tanagra.demon.co.uk/flup.html)

Esprix, yes, that’s what I meant. Racist humor - almost never used, homophobic humor - often used.

In the words of Otto

My take on this is: if you make a “bigoted” comment because you believe the class of person is inferior to your own, then you’re a bigot. If you make such a comment and you don’t believe it, but you’re using others’ belief, then maybe you’re not a bigot but you’re an “enabler” for lack of a better term. If you make the comment and you don’t believe it and it’s not to take advantage of others’ bigotry, then it’s good-natured teasing all in good fun.

It think that sums it up pretty well.

SingleDad, concerning the term “childless”:
I can understand why some people might not like that term. It seems (to me) to mean “deprived of children”, or “lacking children”, and has the connotation that the person is missing something valuable or essential.

[Esprix]

You owe a BIG apology.
How dare you compare Rev Phelps to a blithering idiot.
Blithering idiots everywhere should feel insulted.

Oh, dear, all this talk about not being offensive, and I’ve offended someone. {SIGH}

Esprix